On Board With Billy Graham

If there is something said in the thread you disagree with, point it out.


God bless.

 

And I agree...and we do that after we are saved.

We are not saved by doing that, which is what I have said all along.

Sorry your feathers are ruffled, but you are not presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you are presenting the Kingdom Gospel.

No, BB, He preached under the Law because He lived in the Age of Law. The Law was in effect up unto His death, His Resurrection, His return to Heaven, and His sending the Comforter at which time the New Covenant was formally begun, and it is then that the Disciples of Christ began preaching the Gospel of Christ.

The very moment they receive the Comforter they preach the Gospel, even as Christ said they would:


Acts 1:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Secondly, you bear false witness in saying...

He asserts that the gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed through Paul, not Jesus.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed by the Comforter:


1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


1 Peter 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


The NASB puts it this way:



1 Peter 1:9-12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of [a]your souls.

10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories [c]to follow.

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to [d]look.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Peter 1:9 One early ms does not contain your
2. 1 Peter 1:11 Or inquiring
3. 1 Peter 1:11 Lit after these
4. 1 Peter 1:12 Or gain a clear glimpse

I have dealt with your post in which your confusion about the Gospel of Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom is clearly and publicly portrayed.

Perhaps this is the real reason you say you will no longer participate in the conversation?

And that is all the time I have for today, but again, thanks for this post, and thanks for the links, as that makes it much easier to pull up what was said.

I hope you and everyone here has a blessed day.


God bless.

 

Sure let me give you an example.

John 3:16 Out of context:

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

All I have to do is believe Jesus and I am saved.



With context:

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


John 3:16 is about Jesus, states nothing about your duties, responsibilities.



There are folks here who would not know the gospel from reading the gospels, they would be totally clueless and have no gist of what is the point.

They listen to the sermon on the mount and think......there is nothing here.

They deny what Jesus says and try to smother it with who he is.

Luke 10

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

No that can't be right, they say.


John 14

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

No love, i have to have faith in you and trust you....who and what you are is greater then what you tell me to do.




I wonder in what manner folks would mess up if Jesus had just one page bible that says "hey God either picks you or not, have faith in me got it all covered, bye"

Would save all the trouble of chapter after chapter of USELESS instructions and advice.

Loving Jesus is not even the goal, its salvation first, looking out for #1

 

First, I don't see a link to this in the thread. If you have not yet learned how to quote, I will be happy to help you learn.

Secondly, you do not "add context," you ignore it: v.36 doesn't change v.16.

If you understood what it means to keep something in context you would see that even in your proof-text (v.36)...

...obedience is said to be believing.

So read it again, and perhaps you will see the Gospel of Jesus Christ for the first time in John 3.


Now, is there something in this thread you disagree with, if so, please post it with a quote. That doesn't mean pick a verse that's been mentioned and preach your false gospel.


Continued...

 

I don't have to do anything you say, cause faith alone.

 

You just evidenced the fact that you are one of those folks.

Twaddle.

Create false arguments to create a pulpit for yourself much?

More twaddle.

Perhaps you should read the thread.

I have 8 words for you:


1 John 4:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Again, a false argument: I am not a Calvinist.

Apparently it is useless for some folks.

You do understand that men are saved when God ministers to their hearts, enlightens their natural minds to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and saves them when they respond, right?

Read the thread, I do quite a bit of explaining of this throughout.

Consider:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Gospel of Jesus Christ is pretty simple, my friend, He died in your stead so you can have eternal life through no merit of your own.

That's why Paul preached salvation by grace through faith, because men have never deserved salvation and God has always shown them grace.

And that is all the time I have for now, but be glad to help you understand the Gospel of Christ, that you might put away the works-based religion you follow. I will of course have to get to your responses after I finish with another member.


God bless.

 

The only problem is...you aren't displaying faith.


God bless.

 

As a last comment for now, it is quite interesting that Baptist Believer just declared a Catholic, who is himself teaching works-based salvation...the winner (post #103).

Not surprising, but interesting.




God bless.

 

Sincere but several Questions Bro. Darrell:

-Are you advocating that there maybe more than one Gospel message in the NT? If so, please name them and to which audience each applies.

-Are you also advocating that Jesus in His Gospels did not teach His Gospel (I Cor 15:1-4) or regeneration and the resulting evidence post-regeneration (ie fruits of the Spirit-beatitudes)?

-Do you feel that Christ's final commands in the Gospels were not directed to us (Great Commission)? If not us, than who was He speaking to?

-Admittedly, the Pauline Epistles (to the gentiles) without exception in example, teach baptism after belief and sanctification into Christlikeness (as our Lord clearly taught with His "Great Commission") do you maintain however that only "Paul's Gospel" is for us today without the other two parts of the commission (baptism and sanctification)?

-Lastly, what do you feel is the true lesson in I Cor chapter 1?

Is it that no flesh shall glory in His Presence (vainglory of big shot Christians)
or
Is it that baptism is of no relevance in gentile believer's lives?

Final question: How does one know that they are regenerated and at what point in belief does regeneration occur?

thanks Bro. Darrell and take your time.

 

Sounds a lot like I should engage in the good works of listening to you to understand the gospel and not have to follow a works-based method.

How about I just pass the good work of listening to you to actually follow a non works-based method?

 

There is but one Body of believers though in the scriptures, only 1 saved Body, correct?

 

That is correct, however, it was not until Christ came and reconciled men that men were immersed into God.

Christ was not indwelling the Disciples during His earthly ministry.

There will be One Fold and One Shepherd in the Eternal State, and that Fold will be made up of all believers from Adam to the last man or woman saved.


God bless.

 

No, there is only one Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What I have been trying to explain is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a Mystery not revealed in Ages or generations past, to the Saints (the Old Testament Believers) or the sons of men (which is all inclusive of all men), that is was the Hidden Wisdom of God not revealed since the world began.

The Gospel began to be preached (by God Himself) in Genesis 3:15, and was progressively "revealed" as time wore on. We see the Gospel in God's promises to Abraham, though we can place it into a context of the Gospel of Jesus Christ based on the revelation we have in this Age through the Holy Spirit and the New Testament. The Gospel becomes very specific in the Prophets, but, here is the one thing we must acknowledge...

...just because we can identify the Gospel in such passages as Isaiah 53...

...doesn't mean they could.

And we know that the Gospel was not revealed (in the sense of making it known to the hearer) because it was a Mystery, which is previously unrevealed truth that is now revealed. Take the Rapture, for example, that too was a mystery, but revealed by the Spirit through Paul.

Now, as I said, there is one Gospel of Jesus Christ, but, we do not nullify Scripture calling the revelation provided to men in past Ages as Gospel. In view is God's will being revealed. For Abraham, it was "Your servant will not be thine heir, but one from they own bowels. Furthermore, I will bless all families of the earth through that heir." For the Children of Israel it was "I will bring you into your own land and there you shall find rest. I will give great provision for you."

But we do not see anything that nullifies Paul's teaching of the Mystery of Christ, nor do we see anything above that which is recorded in Scripture concerning those accounts.

All good news found in God's revealed will pointed to Christ (such as The Seed, whereas Abraham understood it as seed (plural)), but, understanding of that mystery was not given until the Comforter was sent.

And one point I have made numerous times in numerous threads is that it is an understanding that is given to us in this Age, and we can look at the Disciples of Christ and see they had not yet been given understanding. Christ rebukes the Disciples after His resurrection for their hardness of heart and unbelief, for thinking testimony of His Resurrection were idle tales.

That and many points have been made throughout the thread, so I would encourage you to read it and see what I mean.


Continued...

 

For the most part, yes. We do see Him give the Gospel, such as we see here:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Now, the typical commentary is "Well, Peter was weak in the flesh." No, he simply had not had it revealed to him why Christ was going to die. We don't need to fault Peter, because he was simply going by what most Jews expected, which was the fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel. They expected a man (the Messiah) to restore Israel to her former glory, but they did not realize that the everlasting throne would in fact be eternal in the most extreme sense.

In v.20 Christ forbids them to relay that which was revealed to them by the Father, that He was the Christ the Son of the Living God. But that is not the same as understanding why Christ died, or that He would (as the Angels remind Mary) rise again as He said He would.

Another point repeatedly made is that if believing Messiah was coming was enough for one to be saved, then we would have to conclude that all Jews who believe in the Hebrew Scriptures and are still looking forward to Christ are saved as well. But we wouldn't do that, right? Why?

Because they have rejected that Christ was the Messiah.

Yes, lol.

Keep in mind that I have never said the disciples were not saved (in the Old Testament sense) during their time with Christ, or that they did not become members of the Church, the Body of Christ (which is that Body of believers who have been baptized into Christ, which is synonymous with being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or, immersed into God in eternal union), what I am saying is it was not until Pentecost that this happened.

The disciples were every bit men of faith (Judas excepted, of course) as Abraham, Moses, and David, but, until Christ died for their sin they were not reconciled to God, eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, and born again believers in the Church, the Body of Christ.

Again I recommend you read the thread, though I would be happy to address any question on that, or go into further detail if you would rather that.


Continued...

 

That's a bit of an absurd question, if you don't mind me saying.

First, you need to understand that sanctification has two primary teachings in Scripture, there is that which is progressive, which deals with us after we are saved, and there is that which is Positional, which speaks of our standing in and before God.

This is positional sanctification, and I will give you vv.1-4 to show the context:


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In v.1 we see that the sacrifices of the Law could not make the comer thereunto perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins, because they could not take away sins.

In v.10 we see we are sanctified, set apart and made holy unto God...once (for all is an insertion).

In v.14 we see that we, those who are sanctified, are made perfect (complete) for ever, and this is through the Offering up of Christ (Himself).

That is positional Sanctification and deals with the issue of Eternal Salvation, rather than our progressive sanctification by which we are conformed (during our lifetimes) to the image of Christ.


So while I do teach that we are to baptize men in water, we must remember that water baptism doesn't save, only the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is defined in Acts 11 (see vv.13-18 specifically, or just read the thread, its mentioned several times, lol).

Lastly, "Paul's Gospel" is the Gospel. Don't buy into the false argument offered by my antagonist that I said "Paul revealed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or the snide question as to whether I am "a disciple of Paul." I could say "Paul begot me" and is a "father" unto me as Abraham was a "father," an example of faith to believers in the Old Testament, but, neither Abraham nor Paul are my Father, that is Sovereign God.

I will say that we, as the Church, obey that which is commanded of us by anyone used of the Spirit to reveal truth (meaning the Apostles and Prophets of the New Testament) and that includes the teachings of Christ. All have application, but, we do not make Christ's ministry unto Israel more than what it was. He did not send the Disciples to the world to preach the Gospel of Christ, He sent them to Israel only...


Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


...and they were sent preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is relevant to the Kingdom of GOd which we have been translated into, but, Christ ministered only to Israel and He did so under the Law (which was in effect until Pentecost, remember, Christ said He did not come to destroy the Law), and within the framework of the revelation provided at that point. When He revealed mysteries they were mysteries of the Kingdom.

And that Kingdom is still specific to the promises God gave to Israel, and they will be fulfilled when Christ returns and establishes that Kingdom.

Why did He command the disciples that they should tell no man that He was the Christ? Because it was not yet relevant. It would not be relevant until after He died, arose, returned to Heaven, sent the Promised Spirit, and then...

...men would have the context in which to place the Gospel of Christ.

Jesus said...


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


...but popular pulpit mythology has Him going around preaching the Gospel of Christ, despite Paul's many statements that it was not revealed in past Ages. It was not revealed in the Age of Law. Proclaimed (i.e., Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 53, etc.), yes. Revealed, no.


Continued...

 

I can comment on the two choices you give me, but there is more than one "true lesson" in 1 Corinthians, and if you don't mind, I will now give you one that is relevant to your questions:


1 Corinthians 1:17-24
King James Version (KJV)

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


Paul makes it clear water baptism doesn't save, but the Cross of Christ saves.

Now (and this is just an intro, you should look at this in more depth yourself), let's see the rest of that lesson, and keep in mind the context is the Cross of Christ, Christ crucified, and that Christ and the Cross is the Wisdom of God:


1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


So if I have to pick the greatest lesson in 1 Corinthians 1, it is that the Christ crucified saves, because He is the Wisdom and Power of God unto salvation. And that Wisdom was hidden since the beginning of the world:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Continued...

 

I don't think we should say believer's baptism is of no relevance in our livs.

Think of John baptizing unto repentance. The primary error one can make is to think that men received repentance by being baptized of John, but, if we read the account we will see that those who were baptized were professing to have already repented. He rebukes and turns away the Pharisees and Sadducees (as well as Jews) because their lives did not evidence that which they were professing. "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance!" he demands, or in other words, "Oh yeah? Prove it!"

For those who are Baptized in the name of Christ, we see in Acts 19 that Paul thought it important that these disciples of John, who were ignorant of the Spirit having been sent (they would have known there was the Spirit of God, lol), to be baptized according to Christ's command to the Disciples. It is why we are baptized that needs to be understood, and first and foremost it is a matter of obedience to the Lord's command. Secondly it is for the purpose of being identified with Christ (in Acts 19 John's disciples were identified...with John). Third, it is a public profession of faith in Christ (Paul reminded them their own teacher had told them they would need to believe on Christ). And lastly, it pictures, symbolically, our death, burial, and rising again unto new life.

Paul rebukes sectarianism, and his primary point is "I did not come to baptize, but to preach Christ crucified that men might be saved." The logical corollary is that water baptism doesn't save, and it is a matter of Who's name we are baptized into, not the name of the fellow that baptized us.

Continued...

 

Regeneration is the result of being Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is synonymous with being baptized into Christ. I see Scripture as teaching salvation in this process:

1. God intervenes in the life of the natural man;

2. He reveals the truth of the Gospel to the natural mind, which cannot know the spiritual things of God apart from God's intervention;

3. The individual responds to the truth shown them, either rejecting or receiving. Here is a point I believe to be true: both believe. There is simply no response to God showing you truth except belief (though I would say His ministry varies in length with each individual). However, only the one who yields to the truth is, at that moment of turning to Christ, reconciled to God (all men are born separated from God, that is the condition that needs remedy), immersed into God in eternal union, receives the new heart and new spirit promised in Ezekiel 36:24-27 because they receive the Promised Spirit also promised there. We are new creatures, not what we were before because now...

...we have eternal life.

Eternal Life is not something poured into someone, nor a position of standing before God, it is God, Who is Eternal Life...indwelling that person.

All of that takes place at the time of salvation. And it is the cleansing of the Gospel, the washing of the water of the Word.

As to how do we know we are regenerate, that is not usually something those newly saved really question. It's only after hearing the false teaching of L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers), or, hearing strong preaching from the Word (which has always and always will convict the heart of believers) that they even begin to question whether they are saved or not. And that is not a bad thing, because 1) it shows that it matters to them, lol, and 2) we are taught to make certain our calling and election:


2 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


2 Corinthians 13:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


I also view one other thing as a good indicator: not falling away. Or in other words, while long term association is not a sure sign one is born again, it heightens the chances.

Another valuable indication is...the gifts you were given when you were saved. Do you know what they are? Are you using them? If so, your likely a born again Christian.

The last indication I will give for now is this: understanding of the Word of God. Only born again believers can understand the Word of God, and while that understanding is not expected to be perfect, we can usually say that someone that teaches false doctrine (such as the L.O.S.T) are likely either unregenerate, or so completely out of the will of God it is tragic.

And that is all the time I have for the evening, but the thanks go to you, my friend...great questions.

Again, I would suggest a reading of the thread, in my view pretty interesting, and I think it deals with the issue of the Gospel being preached by many these days. It is pretty clear no man was reconciled to God prior to Christ coming, nor were they born again, yet...you just don't hear anyone speaking about this.

We can pinpoint being born of God (which is synonymous with being born from above, born again, and born of the Spirit) to after the Incarnation, and I will leave you with this last passage to consider:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


God bless.

 

Works for me.




God bless.

 

Yikes, sorry for the long quote. Thank you Darrell for the answers, I understand your perspective better now. Just one more question and some thoughts for you to consider:

Would it then be reasonable to assume that our Lord included Baptism and All of His Teachings in His Commission as evidentiary of the new birth?

Barring the only exception in the NT, the thief who by the way preached Jesus as he believed to the crowd and then rebuked his disbelieving colleague before death (sounds just like what Baptism represents to me)

Our Lord has always and only accepted faith when He was obeyed, this is the definition of saving faith according to Hebrews 11.

Now if this is true, shouldn't we be teaching it just like He did? That is my only point. God expects obedience upon the new birth (Hebrews 11 and 12) and this must be included within our presentations . When it is not included, then we have counted the costs of their salvation for them. God says, Let Them Decide, do not decide for them. Is this reasonable from your perspective? Shouldn't we fast and pray for those individuals we must have in Heaven and give them as much Scripture as we can instead of "leading" them to something they are likening to finding religion? The ground was not ploughed dear friend, this is what the Sower/Tare parable is all about. Can you see this at all? We are throwing tiny seeds on rocks and proclaiming them saved and then convincing them that they are?? How did it come to this. It came from the big shot Christians with no place in NT Scripture who wanted names for themselves who have originated all false teachings since the first century.

And many men eat up their merchandise, replacing the Word and the Spirit with opinions.

5And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

I pray you will understand a different perspective and see now how I feel your "gospel" version makes tares, not disciples.

Darrell I can tell you are very well read and intelligent so my intention with this is just for consideration. It is your business what you decide.