Nuts For Arminians To Crack

But when God's Spirit bids him to come, he is free to come.

 

The Lord makes His decision based upon what he knows will int eh end be for the best, and for what gives Him the greatest glory in salvation.He does not need to seea sinner accepting jesus in the future, as he knows they will, as he causes that to happen!

 

John 6:44 suggests God's 'bid him to come' is more than an invitation that one is free to accept or decline. The fish that Peter 'bid to come ashore' in John 21:11 had no option to decline. When Paul was 'bid to come to the magistrate' in Acts 16:19 he was not free to accept or decline the invitation.

All three verses use the same word ... the Father DRAWS (John 6:44), Peter HAULS (John 21:11) and Paul was DRAGGED (Acts 16:19). When God 'bids come', we are more than 'free' to come ... we are drawn, hauled, dragged to the Son.

(All I can say for certain is that is how it was for me. I was not in any way, shape or form a 'seeker'. God ripped me from my old life by HIS choice, not by my choice. So where scripture and empirical experience confirm the same theological truth, that's where I am betting my money.)

 

In John 6:44 we have to be careful who and how we apply that passage. First we need to remember that Jesus earthly ministry was "only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” We also know that Jesus was hiding His identity from Israel as a whole except to some with whom He chose like His disciples. (Mark 4:11) Trying to apply 6:44 to everyone and to salvation is out of context and out of the authors intent.

 

I see real free will as meaning that there would be no internall/external force that is able to persuade/convince/cause someone to do something other then what they wanted to do.
Also, God would always "want" to what what would be the correct and proper thing to do, unlike us, whose sin natures compell us to do many times the wrong thing!

 

This world system/Kingdoms are under domaign of Satan for now, as Adam gave up the title deed to him and the authorty to run it in the Fall. Satan offerred the Kingdoms of this earth to jesus, correct?
The earth is still the Lord's, and he will reclaim it on the Second Coming.

 

Matthew 15:21-28

21 Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.​

Jesus' very actions in the paragraph containing those words contradict what he said. (suggesting that something else was going on). Were the Gospels written only to the lost sheep of Israel? Your argument, carried to its logical conclusion, would apply to most of the Gospel account of Jesus' Earthly ministry. Perhaps the Beatitides only are for the lost sheep of Israel as well? Or the Commandments to Love God and our Neighbor?

But if John 6:44 bothers you, then Ephesians 2:1-10 also describes God's soverign work on behalf of a dead people.

 

If you are going to use that type of arrogant nasty language then we do not have anything to discuss.

 

I apologize if "bothers you" was offensive. I simply meant that if you object to the application of John 6:44 to Gentiles, then Ephesians 2:1-10 contains a similar message that is clearly directed to gentiles.

... but bowing out of this discussion works for me, too.

 

Its not that i object to it its just not the context. Neither is the nation of Israel as a whole. he was only talking to His immediate disciples. He spoke this way to them because He was hiding the truth from the rest. Same with Matthew 16:15.

 

Please don't bow out. I'm enjoying the discussion.

The thing about the way you are describing it, is it is almost like you are saying that God drags people AGAINST their will. I do not see that in the Bible. I see God doing a work through the Gospel and the Spirit which convinces and convicts, pours water on dry ground, breaks the hard heart, and the people come because they are made willing by a work of grace that precedes their faith. In other words, we are not dragged against our wills, but by a work of grace are made willing.

Scriptures to support Divine bidding

Revelation 22:17

John 7:37

That's all for now because my phone is about to die.

Blessings to all

 

No external force, but there would certainly be things internal that condition our choices. Mind, intention, motive, desire, all of these things are part of us, and they apply to God as well. But they are not another agent, therefore these things do not negate freedom.

 

Saul/Paul, based on his experience on the road to Damascus, might suggest that it is a little bit of both. Saul was sort of more 'dragged' than 'invited' ... but looking back I don't think Paul would describe it as 'against his will'.

I always liked the quote from Corrie Ten Boom: "God does as He pleases, and He does it right well."

 

God gave to Paul a new heart and Mind concerning Jesus right at the time of Him seeing the risen Jesus, and there did not seem any chance that paul would be refusing to be the Apostle.

 

Is there any chance that anyone will refuse God?

 

The thing is, God does not have to coerce people to love Him. Do a Divine work in their heart? Yes! Coerce? No.

Even if He dragged them to come, they would not love Him because He dragged them to love. They would love Him for His goodness sake. Love is never coerced. Once it is coerced, it is not love

Loving God is a free response of a heart made free

 

His elect never will!

 

Have you ever deliberately sinned since you were saved? If you have, then you were refusing Him at that moment. NOT that He cast you away, but you were casting Him to the back burner in your heart

And if you ever refused the Gospel, and later got saved, then you refused God. Some people refuse God many times before they get saved. And if they were elect in eternity, then your statement is incorrect. It is more accurate to say the elect will never perish, for they are known of God

 

There is a God appointed time to get saved for His own, and NONE will refuse that!