1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 1689Dave, Apr 27, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox nearly 400 years ago. From the LBC consider:

    CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

    Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

    1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18

    2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5

    3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11

    4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

    Here is the same (WCF) in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

    1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

    Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Only God has true free will, as He alone cannot be moved or acted upon by External forces outside/inside Himself!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does God truly have free will? Can he will against his nature?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God could never do that, as that would violate His free will, as that will is based upon His self attributes...
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So God does not have a free will?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he is Will, as he never had to make a decision whether to make a wrong/right decision, as he always does the right thing!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But if he cannot violate his nature, he has no free will.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He has will, period
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But wills only according to his nature = not free to do otherwise.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Free will" is a denial of the bible teaching that the will of lost man is bound to the law of sin and death.

    As God's will is not bound to the law of sin and death, God's will is free.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God is free to do whatever he pleases to do...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can God sin?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope, contrary to his very nature!
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree, but in the LBC and Westminster, the will reacts to secondary causes. And a sinful nature is one of them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is why none of us really have free and full will, as we can and are effected by external/internal forces!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Apr 27, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What the Westminster and the LBC say, is that we freely choose according to secondary causes God controls. And wicked human nature is a secondary cause that sinners delight in freely yielding to. This way they are not automatons, but genuinely incur guilt for their choices.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Still means that we do not have libertine free will...
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2018
    Messages:
    7,953
    Likes Received:
    708
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, but the beauty of it all is that the WCF and LBC circumvent all who accuse you of turning people into automatons. Give it a chance and read it a few times.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have read the 1689 LBC Confession...
     
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If man was truly bound strictly to the lost nature, completely depraved then he would never be able to to a thing but live according to all that is against God. Yet we see lost people who give to the poor, have compassion on those in need, and serve others. That alone refutes your claim.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...