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Featured Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Jun 6, 2018.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Massively false and completely untrue.

    "Free will" has absolutely nothing to do with making choices. People make choices every day.

    "Free will" is the denial of the fact that the will of the lost person is in bondage to the law of sin and death and that the saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
     
    #21 TCassidy, Jun 7, 2018
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”[John 3:16-21]

    Here we see the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. He plainly states that those who love darkness also hate the Light. They also will not come to the Light because their love of darkness is what is holding them back, plus the Light is what exposes their wickedness before God. God is not holding ppl back from seeking Him, it's their sin-filled, depraved heart that keeps them from seeking Him.

    Man can not see the kingdom 'unless one is born again'.[John 3:3] Just like the song 'Amazing Grace', where it says 'I once was blind but now I see'. How was it that they went from spiritual blindness to being able to see the kingdom...by first being born again. In this birth one exercises faith and repentance and they are saved. So, even though we say that regeneration happens, logically, first, I see them happening at exactly the same time.

    God regenerates them, their eyes are opened, ears unstopped, new heart and Spirit are given, they exercise faith and repentance and they are saved. All this happening at the same time.
     
    #22 SovereignGrace, Jun 7, 2018
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Plus, Romans 6 says that we were slaves to sin and even after salvation, we are still slaves...slaves to righteousness.[Romans 6:18]

    We're somebody's slave, whether its Satan or God. Jesus even said so in Matthew 6:24.
     
    #23 SovereignGrace, Jun 7, 2018
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Benjamin

    Hello Benjamin...

    Because we are such close friends and you are concerned to help me...I will not confuse you with the facts of the actual rendering of the texts;
    let's leave that for a few minutes.....

    Whosoever will...let's go with that...I can say that to unsaved people....because we are to declare the good news to all men.....as far as I am concerned, everyone i speak to can be one of God's elect sheep....

    Now of course we know.....NO ONE WILL, NO ONE CAN BELIEVE, unless God effectually draws them.....Now TC already sought to help you...pointing out how depraved men will not seek God...

    If we understand salvation biblically.....whosoever will = the elect sheep who are quickened by the Spirit.....the will believe....and their believing demonstrates that God has worked in them....
    Did God write the scripture in english? or was it hebrew greek and aramaic?

    What? new age? are they using reiki? or crystals and sage?

    So people who know the greek and tell us exactly , literally what it says...are attacking it??? Are you sure of this, or do you need to stay in the air conditioning of your new facility, excessive heat can cause dehydration and confusion .

    Have you forgotten all the times we have answered you on this, verses declaring more saved than the sand of the sea???

    Yes...the same good news for the elect is very bad for the reprobate who love their sin...it guarantees their destruction...very sad but all sin must be punished as you know.

    This is the evil content from the 316 website and it's foul leadership....do not listen to this error Ben...come to the light....

    :)
    I know they are your heroes but come back to scripture instead....

    Let me share this verse with you.....
    4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    This is what the Calvinists believe Ben....try it you might like it...but you are unable to welcome it so far, isn't that right?
    This teaching belongs to jesus and the Apostles, I and other calvinists just have been enabled to welcome it....maybe it will be granted to you also....:Thumbsup

    Lately i have been studying and learning more about God's providence
    as it relates to our proper use of time...God has ordained our salvation, and the good works we are to perform in a limited amount of time....
    here I will share a message with you...
    Why You Must Redeem The Time
    Yes...i believe the term for this is apostasy from the truth...it starts like their statement...we deny, we deny.....
    Calvinists sing the hymn, trust and obey.

    Did you mean to say they call the truth,,,,falsehoods? when you turn from truth...all that is left is error:Sick

    like these mentioned in gen13;
    16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

    That rules out the 316 crowd...our friend Leighton was an epic fail...he is a nice guy, but was like a deer in the headlights when he tried to debate...I felt bad for him, but learning can be painful.

    Good question Benjamin....I am simply opening up their own statement and showing the unlearned the danger of this group who
    OPPOSE HISTORIC TRUTHS OF THE FALL AND ALL THE MAIN DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH....i AM ALSO SHOWING THOSE WHO HAVE LEARNED HOW A GROUP BEGINS THE DOCTRINAL ROOTS OF APOSTASY WITH FEIGNED BENEVOLENCE.... while they attempt to unleash their doctrinal poison into the well .Thanks for asking:Wink

    I did not know any of these groups existed when God saved me...but I never struggled with the thought of How much God is above us...Isa55
    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


    I just read my bible for the first few months, then was told to read kingdom of the cults as mormons and JWs were trying to steal the word....

    When I read eph1 for the first time i was blown away at that clarity of it...the sheer power of God's declaration...i would read and re-read it....could not get past it......
    soon after a friend did point me toward free tapes from believers chapel, after about a year of this
    Many messages by S.Lewis Johnson, william payne, and those men...I started listening to the books they mentioned....

    ...I bought some of Spurgeons sermons, only a 15 volume set.....sold them to a friend, and bought the new park street pulpit, and the metropolitan tabernacle 62 volumes...found a reformed bookstore 300 miles away, drove there and filled up my station wagon with...matthew henry 6volumes, berkofs systematic theology, all of Aw pinks books,john murray, john owen 16 volumes,
    plus His set of commentaries on hebrews, gouge on hebrews,John brown, dave dickson,jonathan edwards 2 vol set....
    I filled that station wagon.....after that when i heard of some of the arminians ...i bought what was supposed to be some of their strongest men offering what they could, but even not knowing much, I could see the defects showing up in contradictions....They helped drive me further to truth..

    Like I just posted...seeing the others trying to explain what we would call
    the Calvinist verses...just listening to the folly of their shallow nonsense...even strengthened my understanding....I looked for the best objections,,,,there are not really any strong ones....a few seem to have some substance, but once you see it...it fades away...


    There have not been any offered in a long time...so i had to go search on leightons collection of heresies to find some current doubletalk.

    stay tuned for pt2;
     
    #24 Iconoclast, Jun 7, 2018
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I have not seen any of you defend the clear error...i was hoping you had one who would clarify the error, but frankly it looks like exposing it as i am doing is making it clear to most people who have not taken a drink of the 316 koolaid....:confused:

    Thanks for that concern Benjamin...thinking about it almost made me a bit misty eyed, so i had to answer...


    I would pray you prosper and do well....than perhaps without financial pressures you would have more time to get your spiritual ducks in order.

    Good thing for me you are distracted being a prosperous Pt device owner...I was really worried:oops::Sick you were going to come after me....:Whistling
    However...that being said...You use just a bit more scripture than Y1, or RM, so my worry faded away quickly......thanks for your thoughts though:Thumbsup
     
    #25 Iconoclast, Jun 7, 2018
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Rockson,

    .

    Do you have a scripture or two on this? I am not sure what you are trying to suggest here?
     
    #26 Iconoclast, Jun 7, 2018
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    How are we born of God. By our will? Or of God?

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
    13 who were born of not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    According to the inspired words of John's Gospel we are NOT born of our own will, but of God's.

    That's bible.
     
    #27 TCassidy, Jun 7, 2018
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And Paul backs this up in Romans 9:16.
     
    #28 SovereignGrace, Jun 7, 2018
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists deny that the non-elect are predestined to hell, too. Godly justly left them in their fallen state w/o any harm to them. Plus, a # that no man can # hardly constitutes a select few. :Cautious

    When Adam fell, the fall was so severe, the results are seen in full effect even unto this day. Man is born at enmity with God. Psalm 58:3 says they are estranged from the womb. This reeks of Pelagius' tabula rasa stance.

    Yet, in John 10:11 Jesus said He lays His life down for the sheep. Ephesians 5:25 says He gave His life for the ekklesia.


    Man, in his fallen state, can not freely do anything, seeing he is spiritually dead. In this dead state, he hates God, is His enemy, is hostile towards Him, is at enmity with Him. Romans 8:5-9

    Those who respond with faith and repentance have already been saved. The new birth & conversion both happen at the same time. John 3

    A flat denial of Ephesians 1.

    And Jesus told Nicodemus that before anyone can see the kingdom, they must be born again. John 3:3

    Matthew 7:24 and Romans 6:16-19 easily refutes the freedom of fallen man's will.

    Wait, man has free will. God will not force him to save him, so God will not force him to stay saved. This is a contradictory statement about free will. The consistent non-Calvinists are the Arminians.

    Sooooo, those who have died, are dying now, and will die later never hearing the gospel died lost, right?
     
    #29 SovereignGrace, Jun 8, 2018
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  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And what is the actual denial... simply put, they deny the doctrine of election. The Church cannot stand w/o it, and we all know this. So what are you caterwauling about? Are you seriously trying to revive a dying patient. That my friend is the job of the HS.
     
    #30 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 8, 2018
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I started a new thread on this topic of what we should teach our children since the topic came up in the Jerry Walls thread and it was about to close, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'm not sure if it was a glitch or if it was intentional, I have an inquiry in with Squire but haven't heard back yet. I didn't get any notice telling me I was in violation of anything, been here 14 years and never received a violation for anything and can't see how my last post would have violated anything. I hope it wasn't just an attempt to silence a sticky issue for Calvinist, can't imagine this board would do such a thing though.

    I have seen very questionable statements here from Calvinist which do cause me to cringe concerning the un-Christlike attitudes of Calvinist, such as this one calling most of the Southern Baptist unsaved, which are in turn applauded by Calvinist with "Winner" and "Agree" tags.....

     
    #31 steaver, Jun 8, 2018
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You'r off topic post has nothing to do with the original post so try to focus steaver if you going to post in this thread
     
    #32 Iconoclast, Jun 8, 2018
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  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Yup...
     
    #33 Benjamin, Jun 8, 2018
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    While I'm not a Calvinist, I do believe God predestinated certain people to be His & to perform special services for Him. While not a complete list, it includes Moses, David, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Ezra, and the Apostles, especially Paul. God chose to speak to Moses & Jeremiah, "making them offers they couldn't refuse", while Jesus did the same with Paul.

    But I DO NOT believe God created anyone with no chance for salvation, being predestined for hell when born. I believe even the beast/antichrist will make a conscious choice to follow his own way & allow Satan to enter & dominate him.
     
    #34 robycop3, Jun 8, 2018
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean by.....a chance for salvation?
    How does a guilty sinner....get a chance?
    What about those who never heard the gospel?
     
    #35 Iconoclast, Jun 8, 2018
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  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Are all aborted babies saved?
     
    #36 steaver, Jun 9, 2018
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Remember, God said He counted the good deeds & attitudes as righteousness for those who'd never heard of Him. I believe Romans 2 deals with such:

    Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    Now, everyone reading this forum or similar ones is without excuse, as the Gospel is plainly proclaimed in them.
     
    #37 robycop3, Jun 9, 2018
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You believe some get saved by works then? Rather than believe the doctrines of Grace you go to a gospel of works.
     
    #38 Iconoclast, Jun 9, 2018
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  19. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    You are removing chapter 2 from the context of Romans and reading way too much into chapter 2. How many did God declare righteous outside of Him? Zero. Chapter 3 makes this clear. Chapter is about each, the Jew and Gentile being judged according to his works. Chapter makes it clear, none are found righteous in thier works, not one.

    as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

    And remember, chapter 2 declared that gentiles had their own law, though it not be mosaic.

    "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

    Nobody has ever been declared righteous in God's sight, apart from faith in God.



    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
    #39 McCree79, Jun 9, 2018
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  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All elect infants dying in infancy shall be saved
     
    #40 Iconoclast, Jun 9, 2018
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