Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists

[TCassidy]

You're trying to justify a reasoning which says man has absolutely no capacity whatsoever to make a good decision about anything.

Massively false and completely untrue.

"Free will" has absolutely nothing to do with making choices. People make choices every day.

"Free will" is the denial of the fact that the will of the lost person is in bondage to the law of sin and death and that the saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What translation are you using? I don't see any of those topics in John 3:16.



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“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”[John 3:16-21]

Here we see the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. He plainly states that those who love darkness also hate the Light. They also will not come to the Light because their love of darkness is what is holding them back, plus the Light is what exposes their wickedness before God. God is not holding ppl back from seeking Him, it's their sin-filled, depraved heart that keeps them from seeking Him.

Man can not see the kingdom 'unless one is born again'.[John 3:3] Just like the song 'Amazing Grace', where it says 'I once was blind but now I see'. How was it that they went from spiritual blindness to being able to see the kingdom...by first being born again. In this birth one exercises faith and repentance and they are saved. So, even though we say that regeneration happens, logically, first, I see them happening at exactly the same time.

God regenerates them, their eyes are opened, ears unstopped, new heart and Spirit are given, they exercise faith and repentance and they are saved. All this happening at the same time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Massively false and completely untrue.

"Free will" has absolutely nothing to do with making choices. People make choices every day.

"Free will" is the denial of the fact that the will of the lost person is in bondage to the law of sin and death and that the saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Plus, Romans 6 says that we were slaves to sin and even after salvation, we are still slaves...slaves to righteousness.[Romans 6:18]

We're somebody's slave, whether its Satan or God. Jesus even said so in Matthew 6:24.

 

[Iconoclast]

Benjamin

Hello Benjamin...

Yes!!! “Whosoever will” is absolutely the long held interpretational view of the scripture in relation to the Gospel,

Because we are such close friends and you are concerned to help me...I will not confuse you with the facts of the actual rendering of the texts;

pas πᾶς everyone Adj-NMS
3588 [e] ho ὁ - Art-NMS
4100 [e] pisteuōn πιστεύων believing V-PPA-NM

let's leave that for a few minutes.....

Whosoever will...let's go with that...I can say that to unsaved people....because we are to declare the good news to all men.....as far as I am concerned, everyone i speak to can be one of God's elect sheep....

Now of course we know.....NNE WILL, NNE CAN BELIEVE, unless God effectually draws them.....Now TC already sought to help you...pointing out how depraved men will not seek God...

If we understand salvation biblically.....whosoever will = the elect sheep who are quickened by the Spirit.....the will believe....and their believing demonstrates that God has worked in them....

…in every common major English translation Bible!!!

Did God write the scripture in english? or was it hebrew greek and aramaic?

Now, we got a bunch of New Age Calvinists

What? new age? are they using reiki? or crystals and sage?

attacking that interpretation

So people who know the greek and tell us exactly , literally what it says...are attacking it??? Are you sure of this, or do you need to stay in the air conditioning of your new facility, excessive heat can cause dehydration and confusion .

and proclaiming that the Good News is only for the lucky predetermined few

Have you forgotten all the times we have answered you on this, verses declaring more saved than the sand of the sea???

and is merely Bad News for all the rest

Yes...the same good news for the elect is very bad for the reprobate who love their sin...it guarantees their destruction...very sad but all sin must be punished as you know.

whom God created only so they could spend eternity in HELL suffering for His glory!!

This is the evil content from the 316 website and it's foul leadership....do not listen to this error Ben...come to the light....

Heck yeah, they deny this “truth” someone’s got to stand up against this nonsense and preach the light back into the Gospel, …God bless them!!

I know they are your heroes but come back to scripture instead....

What is with this fallacious question begging stuff about "truth"??

Let me share this verse with you.....
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This is what the Calvinists believe Ben....try it you might like it...but you are unable to welcome it so far, isn't that right?

Don’t you know people can see through this "teaching" of yours?

This teaching belongs to jesus and the Apostles, I and other calvinists just have been enabled to welcome it....maybe it will be granted to you also....

Where have you been??

Lately i have been studying and learning more about God's providence
as it relates to our proper use of time...God has ordained our salvation, and the good works we are to perform in a limited amount of time....
here I will share a message with you...
Why You Must Redeem The Time

Heck yes, these people deny the Calvinist view of Total Inability and Predetermination of the Elect!!!

Yes...i believe the term for this is apostasy from the truth...it starts like their statement...we deny, we deny.....
Calvinists sing the hymn, trust and obey.

More so they calling out these as false teachings

Did you mean to say they call the truth,,,,falsehoods? when you turn from truth...all that is left is error

that end in proclaiming that the Gospel is merely for the pre-selected few!

like these mentioned in gen13;
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Anybody ever involved with soteriological debate that has so much as a clue of the subjects up for debate KNOWS THIS!!

That rules out the 316 crowd...our friend Leighton was an epic fail...he is a nice guy, but was like a deer in the headlights when he tried to debate...I felt bad for him, but learning can be painful.

For the life of me, I cannot figure who you are trying to make this argument to unless this is merely your effort to reach those who have never studied these issues as you way of trying to place some presupposition thoughts in the heads of the unlearned!

Good question Benjamin....I am simply opening up their own statement and showing the unlearned the danger of this group who
OPPOSE HISTORIC TRUTHS OF THE FALL AND ALL THE MAIN DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH....i AM ALSO SHOWING THOSE WHO HAVE LEARNED HOW A GROUP BEGINS THE DOCTRINAL ROOTS OF APOSTASY WITH FEIGNED BENEVOLENCE.... while they attempt to unleash their doctrinal poison into the well .Thanks for asking

Is that how you formed your soteriological views?

I did not know any of these groups existed when God saved me...but I never struggled with the thought of How much God is above us...Isa55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

By being taught by someone with Calvinist’ blinders on

I just read my bible for the first few months, then was told to read kingdom of the cults as mormons and JWs were trying to steal the word....

When I read eph1 for the first time i was blown away at that clarity of it...the sheer power of God's declaration...i would read and re-read it....could not get past it......
soon after a friend did point me toward free tapes from believers chapel, after about a year of this
Many messages by S.Lewis Johnson, william payne, and those men...I started listening to the books they mentioned....

...I bought some of Spurgeons sermons, only a 15 volume set.....sold them to a friend, and bought the new park street pulpit, and the metropolitan tabernacle 62 volumes...found a reformed bookstore 300 miles away, drove there and filled up my station wagon with...matthew henry 6volumes, berkofs systematic theology, all of Aw pinks books,john murray, john owen 16 volumes,
plus His set of commentaries on hebrews, gouge on hebrews,John brown, dave dickson,jonathan edwards 2 vol set....
I filled that station wagon.....after that when i heard of some of the arminians ...i bought what was supposed to be some of their strongest men offering what they could, but even not knowing much, I could see the defects showing up in contradictions....They helped drive me further to truth..

who pronounced such man-made doctrines as biblical truth while being uplifted with the thoughts of being a newly inspired theologian and ready to start instructing others on your insightfulness? …nevermind.

Like I just posted...seeing the others trying to explain what we would call
the Calvinist verses...just listening to the folly of their shallow nonsense...even strengthened my understanding....I looked for the best objections,,,,there are not really any strong ones....a few seem to have some substance, but once you see it...it fades away...

You don’t seem to be able to stand these common objections

There have not been any offered in a long time...so i had to go search on leightons collection of heresies to find some current doubletalk.

stay tuned for pt2;

 

[Iconoclast]

to your soteriological system and the way you go about refuting them with question begging replies about biblical truth while apparently talking to yourself is not only looking juvenile and somewhat disingenuous but as ITL said is rather strange indeed.

I have not seen any of you defend the clear error...i was hoping you had one who would clarify the error, but frankly it looks like exposing it as i am doing is making it clear to most people who have not taken a drink of the 316 koolaid....

I think you need to hear this Icon, trying to help you out a little here bud,

Thanks for that concern Benjamin...thinking about it almost made me a bit misty eyed, so i had to answer...

but I just took over a bunch of physical therapy patients today besides running a new PT device business that looks to be getting its wings so I just don’t have the time to join in your “fun” and chase all these rabbits of yours waiting to emerge from their holes.

I would pray you prosper and do well....than perhaps without financial pressures you would have more time to get your spiritual ducks in order.

Anyway, I’d probably just be tempted to go right for your jugular vein and would likely make a bloody mess out your thread. Take care friend.

Good thing for me you are distracted being a prosperous Pt device owner...I was really worried you were going to come after me....
However...that being said...You use just a bit more scripture than Y1, or RM, so my worry faded away quickly......thanks for your thoughts though

 

[Iconoclast]

Rockson,

One can however respond with their will to receive a higher capacity for walking in a heightened nature of LOVE, which is God

.

Do you have a scripture or two on this? I am not sure what you are trying to suggest here?

Will we allow him[/QUOTE]

Did you mean to post this? we "allow God"??? God has to react to our will?....You are not meaning this are you?

o take out a stony heart of flesh and give us a new one? Such is what each one can choose.

Where did ezk say this? I missed that part...

 

[TCassidy]

How are we born of God. By our will? Or of God?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born of not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

According to the inspired words of John's Gospel we are NOT born of our own will, but of God's.

That's bible.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How are we born of God. By our will? Or of God?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born of not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

According to the inspired words of John's Gospel we are NOT born of our own will, but of God's.

That's bible.

And Paul backs this up in Romans 9:16.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Article One: The Gospel

We affirm that the Gospel is the good news that God has made a way of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for any person. This is in keeping with God's desire for every person to be saved.
We deny that only a select few are capable of responding to the Gospel while the rest are predestined to an eternity in hell.
Genesis 3:15; Psalm 2:1-12; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Luke 19.10; Luke 24:45-49; John 1:1-18, 3:16; Romans 1:1-6, 5:8; 8:34; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 4:4-7; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-16; 2 Peter 3:9

Calvinists deny that the non-elect are predestined to hell, too. Godly justly left them in their fallen state w/o any harm to them. Plus, a # that no man can # hardly constitutes a select few.

Article Two: The Sinfulness of Man
We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person's sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.
We deny that Adam's sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person's free will or rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned. While no sinner is remotely capable of achieving salvation through his own effort, we deny that any sinner is saved apart from a free response to the Holy Spirit's drawing through the Gospel.
Genesis 3:15-24; 6:5; Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 6:5, 7:15-16;53:6;Jeremiah 17:5,9, 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18-32; 3:9-18, 5:12, 6:23; 7:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-25; 6:9-10;15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27-28; Revelation 20:11-15

When Adam fell, the fall was so severe, the results are seen in full effect even unto this day. Man is born at enmity with God. Psalm 58:3 says they are estranged from the womb. This reeks of Pelagius' tabula rasa stance.

Article Three: The Atonement of Christ
We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person.
We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person's free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person's free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved.
Psalm 22:1-31; Isaiah 53:1-12; John 12:32, 14:6; Acts 10:39-43; Acts 16:30-32; Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:10-14; Philippians 2:5-11; Col. 1:13-20; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; Hebrews 9:12-15, 24-28; 10:1-18; I John 1:7; 2:2

Yet, in John 10:11 Jesus said He lays His life down for the sheep. Ephesians 5:25 says He gave His life for the ekklesia.

Article Four: The Grace of God
We affirm that grace is God's generous decision to provide salvation for any person by taking all of the initiative in providing atonement, in freely offering the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, and in uniting the believer to Christ through the Holy Spirit by faith.
We deny that grace negates the necessity of a free response of faith or that it cannot be resisted. We deny that the response of faith is in any way a meritorious work that earns salvation.
Ezra 9:8; Proverbs 3:34; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 19:16-30, 23:37; Luke 10:1-12; Acts 15:11; 20:24; Romans 3:24, 27-28; 5:6, 8, 15-21; Galatians 1:6; 2:21; 5; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:2-9; Colossians 2:13-17; Hebrews 4:16; 9:28; 1 John 4:19

Man, in his fallen state, can not freely do anything, seeing he is spiritually dead. In this dead state, he hates God, is His enemy, is hostile towards Him, is at enmity with Him. Romans 8:5-9

Article Five: The Regeneration of the Sinner
We affirm that any person who responds to the Gospel with repentance and faith is born again through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is a new creation in Christ and enters, at the moment he believes, into eternal life.
We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.
Luke 15:24; John 3:3; 7:37-39; 10:10; 16:7-14; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:4-11; 10:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20; 6:15; Colossians 2:13; 1 Peter 3:18

Those who respond with faith and repentance have already been saved. The new birth & conversion both happen at the same time. John 3

Article Six: The Election to Salvation
We affirm that, in reference to salvation, election speaks of God's eternal, gracious, and certain plan in Christ to have a people who are His by repentance and faith.
We deny that election means that, from eternity, God predestined certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.
Genesis 1:26-28; 12:1-3; Exodus 19:6;Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 24:31; 25:34; John 6:70; 15:16; Romans 8:29-30, 33;9:6-8; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:11-22; 3:1-11; 4:4-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 7:9-10

A flat denial of Ephesians 1.

Article Seven: The Sovereignty of God
We affirm God's eternal knowledge of and sovereignty over every person's salvation or condemnation.
We deny that God's sovereignty and knowledge require Him to cause a person's acceptance or rejection of faith in Christ.
Genesis 1:1; 6:5-8; 18:16-33; 22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; 1 Chronicles 29:10-20; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Joel 2:32; Psalm 23; 51:4; 139:1-6; Proverbs 15:3; John 6:44; Romans 11:3; Titus 3:3-7; James 1:13-15; Hebrews 11:6, 12:28; 1 Peter 1:17

And Jesus told Nicodemus that before anyone can see the kingdom, they must be born again. John 3:3

Article Eight: The Free Will of Man
We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God's gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.
We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an "effectual call" for certain people that is different from a "general call" to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.
Genesis 1:26-28; Numbers 21:8-9; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; 1 Samuel 8:1-22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; Esther 3:12-14; Matthew 7:13-14; 11:20-24; Mark 10:17-22; Luke 9:23-24; 13:34; 15:17-20; Romans 10:9-10; Titus 2:12; Revelation 22:17

Matthew 7:24 and Romans 6:16-19 easily refutes the freedom of fallen man's will.

Article Nine: The Security of the Believer
We affirm that when a person responds in faith to the Gospel, God promises to complete the process of salvation in the believer into eternity. This process begins with justification, whereby the sinner is immediately acquitted of all sin and granted peace with God; continues in sanctification, whereby the saved are progressively conformed to the image of Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit; and concludes in glorification, whereby the saint enjoys life with Christ in heaven forever.
We deny that this Holy Spirit-sealed relationship can ever be broken. We deny even the possibility of apostasy.
John 10:28-29; 14:1-4; 16:12-14; Philippians 1:6; Romans 3:21-26; 8:29,30; 35-39; 12:1-3; 2 Corinthians 4:17; Ephesians 1:13-14; Philippians 3:12; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 John 2:19; 3:2; 5:13-15; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 13:5; James 1:12; Jude 24-25

Wait, man has free will. God will not force him to save him, so God will not force him to stay saved. This is a contradictory statement about free will. The consistent non-Calvinists are the Arminians.

Article Ten: The Great Commission
We affirm that the Lord Jesus Christ commissioned His church to preach the good news of salvation to all people to the ends of the earth. We affirm that the proclamation of the Gospel is God's means of bringing any person to salvation.
We deny that salvation is possible outside of a faith response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Psalm 51:13; Proverbs 11:30; Isaiah 52:7; Matthew 28:19-20; John 14:6; Acts 1:8; 4:12; 10:42-43; Romans 1:16, 10:13-15; 1 Corinthians 1:17-21; Ephesians 3:7-9; 6:19-20; Philippians 1:12-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Timothy 2:5; 2 Timothy 4:1-5

Sooooo, those who have died, are dying now, and will die later never hearing the gospel died lost, right?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No....notice the complete framework of these people is to deny.
We deny this...We deny that...you cannot be honest enough to notice it and admit it.....now that is strange indeed.
Making observations on their foul intent is not denigrating anyone. It has become yet another strategy for those like you who cannot stand biblically....so you shoot arrows from a distance...but when called to answer you do not answer the bell.
These people want to depart from mainstream teaching...great....leave and start your own denomination...based on what you believe. ...not what you deny.
Fyi.....I was not posting to myself....just breaking up the error...into little pieces so the reading impaired will not complain about how long it is....
There is so much error....it just needs to be shown publically.

You and others are welcome to offer your defense of it...but instead you attack the messenger rather than the message.
I find that strange...but it is the more for 4 or 5 of you....you know who you are

And what is the actual denial... simply put, they deny the doctrine of election. The Church cannot stand w/o it, and we all know this. So what are you caterwauling about? Are you seriously trying to revive a dying patient. That my friend is the job of the HS.

 

[steaver]

Maybe it was the question of does a Calvinist lie to their children when they put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or do they tell them their “bible truth” that they hope they are one of the pre-selected few? ...or nailing them on half-truths as they sidestep the issue.

I started a new thread on this topic of what we should teach our children since the topic came up in the Jerry Walls thread and it was about to close, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'm not sure if it was a glitch or if it was intentional, I have an inquiry in with Squire but haven't heard back yet. I didn't get any notice telling me I was in violation of anything, been here 14 years and never received a violation for anything and can't see how my last post would have violated anything. I hope it wasn't just an attempt to silence a sticky issue for Calvinist, can't imagine this board would do such a thing though.

I have seen very questionable statements here from Calvinist which do cause me to cringe concerning the un-Christlike attitudes of Calvinist, such as this one calling most of the Southern Baptist unsaved, which are in turn applauded by Calvinist with "Winner" and "Agree" tags.....

Switching from sheep food, to goat food leads to congregations of mostly goats...with a few emaciated sheep trying to hang on....

 

[Iconoclast]

I started a new thread on this topic of what we should teach our children since the topic came up in the Jerry Walls thread and it was about to close, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'm not sure if it was a glitch or if it was intentional, I have an inquiry in with Squire but haven't heard back yet. I didn't get any notice telling me I was in violation of anything, been here 14 years and never received a violation for anything and can't see how my last post would have violated anything. I hope it wasn't just an attempt to silence a sticky issue for Calvinist, can't imagine this board would do such a thing though.

I have seen very questionable statements here from Calvinist which do cause me to cringe concerning the un-Christlike attitudes of Calvinist, such as this one calling most of the Southern Baptist unsaved, which are in turn applauded by Calvinist with "Winner" and "Agree" tags.....

You'r off topic post has nothing to do with the original post so try to focus steaver if you going to post in this thread

 

[Benjamin]

I started a new thread on this topic of what we should teach our children since the topic came up in the Jerry Walls thread and it was about to close, but it mysteriously disappeared. I'm not sure if it was a glitch or if it was intentional, I have an inquiry in with Squire but haven't heard back yet. I didn't get any notice telling me I was in violation of anything, been here 14 years and never received a violation for anything and can't see how my last post would have violated anything. I hope it wasn't just an attempt to silence a sticky issue for Calvinist, can't imagine this board would do such a thing though.

I have seen very questionable statements here from Calvinist which do cause me to cringe concerning the un-Christlike attitudes of Calvinist, such as this one calling most of the Southern Baptist unsaved, which are in turn applauded by Calvinist with "Winner" and "Agree" tags.....

Yup...

 

[robycop3]

look at this one;
We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.

now they deny biblical election of persons;
We affirm that, in reference to salvation, election speaks of God's eternal, gracious, and certain plan in Christ to have a people who are His by repentance and faith.

We deny that election means that, from eternity, God predestined certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.

While I'm not a Calvinist, I do believe God predestinated certain people to be His & to perform special services for Him. While not a complete list, it includes Moses, David, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Ezra, and the Apostles, especially Paul. God chose to speak to Moses & Jeremiah, "making them offers they couldn't refuse", while Jesus did the same with Paul.

But I DO NOT believe God created anyone with no chance for salvation, being predestined for hell when born. I believe even the beast/antichrist will make a conscious choice to follow his own way & allow Satan to enter & dominate him.

 

[Iconoclast]

While I'm not a Calvinist, I do believe God predestinated certain people to be His & to perform special services for Him. While not a complete list, it includes Moses, David, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Ezra, and the Apostles, especially Paul. God chose to speak to Moses & Jeremiah, "making them offers they couldn't refuse", while Jesus did the same with Paul.

But I DO NOT believe God created anyone with no chance for salvation, being predestined for hell when born. I believe even the beast/antichrist will make a conscious choice to follow his own way & allow Satan to enter & dominate him.

What do you mean by.....a chance for salvation?
How does a guilty sinner....get a chance?
What about those who never heard the gospel?

 

[steaver]

What about those who never heard the gospel?

Are all aborted babies saved?

 

[robycop3]

What do you mean by.....a chance for salvation?
How does a guilty sinner....get a chance?
What about those who never heard the gospel?

Remember, God said He counted the good deeds & attitudes as righteousness for those who'd never heard of Him. I believe Romans 2 deals with such:

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now, everyone reading this forum or similar ones is without excuse, as the Gospel is plainly proclaimed in them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Remember, God said He counted the good deeds & attitudes as righteousness for those who'd never heard of Him. I believe Romans 2 deals with such:

Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now, everyone reading this forum or similar ones is without excuse, as the Gospel is plainly proclaimed in them.

You believe some get saved by works then? Rather than believe the doctrines of Grace you go to a gospel of works.

 

[McCree79]

Remember, God said He counted the good deeds & attitudes as righteousness for those who'd never heard of Him. I believe Romans 2 deals with such:

You are removing chapter 2 from the context of Romans and reading way too much into chapter 2. How many did God declare righteous outside of Him? Zero. Chapter 3 makes this clear. Chapter is about each, the Jew and Gentile being judged according to his works. Chapter makes it clear, none are found righteous in thier works, not one.

as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

And remember, chapter 2 declared that gentiles had their own law, though it not be mosaic.

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

Nobody has ever been declared righteous in God's sight, apart from faith in God.



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[Iconoclast]

Are all aborted babies saved?

All elect infants dying in infancy shall be saved