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Examining some of the misguided claims of 316 Tradionalists
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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In case anyone was wondering, this quote is from the gospel of Westminster.
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Election is God's business it's not for me to determine who is in who is in the elect that's God's business I leave it to him and I trust them that's all Calvinists do maybe someday you will trust in that way also
Believers would not wondering on this at all. They understand that salvation is of the Lord and obviously God has decreed and elected who would be saved so when it says all elect infants dying and infancyshall be saved that covers it.
Not really making a tough call on babies dying in infancy though, is it?
"All elect octogenarians dying in old age shall be saved."
"All elect teenagers dying in adolescence shall be saved."
Steaver asked if all aborted babies were saved. You dodged the question by quoting a man-made theological document that states the obvious.
You can't answer his question because if you say some aborted babies are not saved you will be saying God predestines some to Hell.
Next up in your attempt at a defense: Appeal to mystery. God's ways are not our ways. Some things are a mystery and we can't understand them.
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Oh you say so in your own post that it's obvious. God has elected a multitude to be saved ,it doesn't matter what age they are.
the elect multitude will be saved, no more and no less. I don't have to appeal to anything I don't have to appeal to mystery I don't have to appeal to man-made anything I just have to look at the Bible.
If you understood the true nature of biblical salvation you and your friend Stever wouldn't be asking ridiculous questions.
Yes, the elect will be saved. Duh.
Your wishy-washy attempt to answer, "are all aborted babies saved?" was a failure. Your answer--"All elect babies that die in infancy are saved" is a dodge and trying to get clarity prompts the natural follow up question--Are all aborted babies elect?
Asking if all infants that die go to Heaven is not a ridiculous question, IMO. But apparently it is to Calvinists because they can't answer it without admitting that God predestines people, babies in fact, to Hell.
Oh, and nice ad hominem there..."If you understood the true nature of biblical salvation".
I submit that someone who can't answer the question about the eternal destination of infants that die is one who doesn't understand biblical salvation.
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No. Salvation is temporal. Grace is not. God, in His infinite Mercy and Grace, numbers all those who die in infancy among the elect. They are Safe in the loving arms of Christ.
Rockson
Active Member
Yeah that's Bible. But have you captured the true meaning of words and concepts used hundreds of years ago. Ephesians 2: 3 states, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh..." I'll talk about the word "conversation". Do you believe the verse in context was talking about the words we speak? Or rather about our lifestyle. It's meant lifestyle. In the same way that you shouldn't be so caught up with the word conversation as meaning words, neither should you get so caught up with the word, WILL meaning what you think it does in John 1:13.
In regard to John 1:13 you also have to go back to vs 12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."
That spells out the exact system of how Salvation is imparted...that is by receiving and believing on his name. Now the next verse, or the last part of the sentence..."who were born not of blood" or meaning it wasn't a hereditary things passed down by physical genetics "not the will of the flesh" meaning the way men might rather it be that different way should bring about bring about Salvation which doesn't.... and also quite possibly Salvation wasn't thought of as a necessary need by man BUT it was God's idea.. In other words this system of RECEIVING and BELIEVING on his name came from God. It by no means is suggesting that God puts the believing INTO a person. Their responsibility and everyone's responsibility is to believe and receive the gospel.
I guess the question I'd have for some dear Calvinists do you actually really believe it's just to hold someone responsible to do something that they have no capacity to carry out? God holds men responsible to receive the good news. The penalty is horrific if they don't.
Yes. It says that it means and means what it says.
I'm not. And, yes, I know what ανεστραφημεν means, which, of course, has nothing at all to do with the discussion.
I also know what θεληματος means.
I am not a Calvinist.
So it is God's fault that sinners sin? Is it a sin for God to show mercy on whom He will show mercy?
If God CAN save everyone is it a sin for Him NOT to save everyone?
If babies upon death are automatically received into the eternal presence of God, allowing to them to come to the mythical ‘age of accountability’, then seeing them die eternally lost, would then make the parents cruel in knowing that their child died and went to hell.
Please do not take this as me being snarky, but where can we find this explicitly stated in the Bible?
It is implicit, not explicit. (2 Kings 4.26) (2 Samuel 12:16-23) Etc.
Now, I see 2 Samuel 12 as a father grieving his son’s death. We lost a pug that was our baby on 7/7/2017, as we can not have kids. To this day, I feel like digging into the grave, climbing in with her, and closing up the hole. To me, I see David saying that, that one day he will be with his son in the grave/tomb. But I could be wrong with that interpretation.
Rockson
Active Member
And you'd admit a great many choices about things people make are good choices? If one chooses to help out a friend? If one gives to the poor? If one speaks encouraging words to one discouraged? If one helps pay someone's medical bills? Or if one chooses to do good things for their children? (and the list can go on and on) Would you agree that even the unsaved can make good choices?
What does WILL have anything to do with being in bondage to the law of sin and death? Didn't Paul even state that according to the flesh he had a desire to want to live a righteous holy life? (Rom 7:19) but he found the flesh would keep drawing him into defeat? So was the problem with WILL? Or was it rather that he didn't have the power to rise above sin even though a person's will may want to. I suggest the latter was the reason. I've used this comparison before....if God told me to be acceptable I must run or at least move at 60 miles and hour...I can't do it.
I'm bound by the law of physical (the law of sin and death) I would need a recreation of my capabilities to be able to do this. STILL...even with that, such doesn't mean it's proof MY WILL was against God or that I'd reject an offer of an recreation he'd give me. You're wanting to lock in WILL as not possessing any capability to choose. No offense but it's a rather forced interpretation. I do understand though. It sounds or seems like a statement of more humility to God for it has a look to it that appears to give more glory to God...it is however I'd suggest a glory or praise that God wouldn't accept as it runs contrary to his character or nature.
That's correct. When one is born again they now have a capacity to walk FREE from the law of sin and death. It's still a capacity though and one still has to make right choices each moment and hour of the day to allow that newness of life to flow through them. (Rom 6:4) Your statement above, by the way when you said, "A saved man's will is bound to the law of new life in Christ" I think most people reading that would say it seems you're saying a saved person doesn't even have the capacity to even sin or choose to. Again your error I'd say is that you're wanting to lock up WILL in one room or another. If they're bound by the law of sin and death they simply can't have a WILL of anything for God and if they're free from the law of sin and death they don't have a WILL ever running contrary to God's. I think you know if you give it further thought such can't be true. Christians do at times hopefully only periodically choose YES by their will to sin. It's unfortunate and God will forgive them but it happens.
I answered this post in full [Edited to remove questioning Moderator action in open forum] the question was answered and you didn't seem to comprehend it so it's not my fault and calling me names wishy-washy and this and that it's not going to change the fact that you don't get that it's a covenant salvation and so God Saves in full those He's purposes to save.
Your real agenda was to blame God for a mans sin and try to suggest that God takes delight in predestining people to hell and babies and everything else which is it off repeated caricature of the truth that God does judge sin and men are guilty .
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Please provide scripture to support that.
Works salvation.
The 1689 LBCoF also states this.
Iconoclast said:
<run-on, rambling sentence snipped>
I'm guessing [Edited] you called me creepy, ungodly, and evil.
Whoa! Why are you so bitter?
Wrong. I'm trying to show you the flaws in your theology. You don't have an answer to the question, "Do all aborted babies go to Hell?"
TCassidy answered it. Why can't you?
And how can you speak as to my motivations?
An oft-repeated caricature would be you ascribing false motivations to my posts, calling me evil, saying I don't understand salvation, saying I'm ungodly, etc.
I'm not arguing against that. Men are guilty, men have sinned; God will judge them. What sin are aborted babies guilty of? What commandment have they broken?
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