1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Problem with Dynamic Equivalence

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Martin Marprelate, Jun 27, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 4 of 8
  1. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,864
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is not necessary to quote Cloud's article in its entirety. You've already given the link.
     
    #61 rsr, Jun 29, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    JK is spamming.

    Warning, JK: D.C. is a false teacher. He is as messed up on the subject of Bible Translations as he is on Calvinism.
     
    #62 Rippon, Jun 29, 2018
  3. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,925
    Likes Received:
    130
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I didn’t I quoted the parts that I thought relevant. There is a still a whole lot more in the article
     
    #63 Jordan Kurecki, Jun 29, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thet weren't in their original languagesto their original hearers and readers, but at times for ther true intended statement to cross across into Englih, it can be ackward to read, but accurate to the text!
     
    #64 Yeshua1, Jun 29, 2018
  5. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,324
    Likes Received:
    1,246
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My philosophy, why not get both?

    Ink and paper are no longer precious commodities. That why I like my CSB, easy to read but with plenty of translation notes. Paired with my LEB, I feel that I have the best of both worlds.
     
    #65 Rob_BW, Jun 29, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His Nkjv is fine, as it is overall a more accurate translation!
     
    #66 Yeshua1, Jun 29, 2018
  7. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I always use multiple English translations. Usually it is the ESV and CSB. Though I look at the NIV, NKJV, LEB, WEB, ASV and NASB semi frequently.

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
    #67 McCree79, Jun 29, 2018
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Got it. I figured it out after writing my post. We are agreed.
     
    #68 John of Japan, Jun 29, 2018
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Forgive me, but some advice: David Cloud is not a translator and does not understand translation. Don't depend on him. While I agree with him against the DE method, he makes several mistakes here. Alas, I don't have time to deal with all of them, since we are about to go on vacation, but just one is that functional and dynamic equivalence are the same thing.

    I have no idea where he got some of the rest, such as "impact translation." I have close to 100 books on both Bible and secular translation and linguistics, and have never heard of this term. And he doesn't source it.
     
    #69 John of Japan, Jun 29, 2018
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,916
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't think it would.
    For the third time, I am not picking on the NIV, I am trying to give examples of the shortcomings of a D.E. translation and the NIV 1984 is the one I'm familiar with.
    I am glad that the 2011 NIV is moving closer to being a Formal Equivalence translation, but as you know there are other issues that will keep me from using it. However, I'm not going to discuss that here. I may start a new thread for it later.
     
    #70 Martin Marprelate, Jun 29, 2018
  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    9,760
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Great Isaiah Scroll was one of the first found (cave 1) and the best preserved.
    There are more than 20 copies of Isaiah in various conditions found among the DDSs.
    All I can provide is a translation; copying Hebrew verses from BHS or 1QIsaA doesn't work well on the BBoard (it corrects the reversed text).

    my victory near; my salvation will go forth.
    His arm will judge the peoples,
    the coastlands will wait for him,
    and in his arm they will hope.
    Isaiah 51:5 (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible)
    ​
    Check out the NET Bible for a good example of DE!
    ​
    I am ready to vindicate,
    I am ready to deliver,
    I will establish justice among the nations.
    The coastlands wait patiently for me;
    they wait in anticipation for the revelation of my power.
    Isaiah 51:5 (NET)     ​
    ​
    Rob
     
    #71 Deacon, Jun 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 2
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you would pay attention : I was saying that he might as well get the 2011 edition because he would have less to complain about in comparison to the 1984 model.
     
    #72 Rippon, Jun 29, 2018
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Man, oh man! Are you a standup comedian somewhere?
     
    #73 Rippon, Jun 29, 2018
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The NLT preserves features here that the NET doesn't.

    My mercy and justice are coming soon.
    My salvation is on the way.
    My strong arm will bring justice to the nations.
    All distant lands will look to me
    and wait in hope for my powerful arm.
     
    #74 Rippon, Jun 29, 2018
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your prose is certainly awkward.
     
    #75 Rippon, Jun 29, 2018
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would actually have more, based upon their gender issues!
     
    #76 Yeshua1, Jun 30, 2018
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But like the Nas/Nkjv, accurate!
     
    #77 Yeshua1, Jun 30, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,916
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now for two texts where words are added without informing the reader.

    1 Corinthians 14:29, NKJV. 'Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.'
    1 Corinthians 14:29, NIV (1984). 'Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.'

    The point here is that the words 'What is said' appear in no Greek text whatsoever. They have been added by the NIV translators but no indication of this is given. Why does it matter? Well, what is it that is being judged? There are perhaps six prophets in the church in Corinth, but only two or three may speak. So the prophets get together before a church meeting and compare the messages that they have received from the Spirit. They then judge which ones are going to speak at that meeting and which messages can wait until the next one. They are not judging the truth of the message; that is the responsibility of each member of the congregation (Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21).

    The NIV (1984) translation prevents the reader from interpreting the text properly IMO.

    Then a famous old chestnut:

    1 John 2:2, NKJV. 'And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world.'
    1 John 2:2, NASB. 'And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of the whole world.'
    1 John 2:2, NIV(1984). He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world.'

    The words, 'those of' (NASB) or 'the sins of' (NIV) are not found in any ancient MSS. They are an interpretative gloss. The NASB (like the KJV) put the words in italics so that the reader can see that they are not part of the text. But the NIV reader has no idea of this. The point is that it is quite possible that John is saying that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for the whole Kosmos. The ground is cursed because of sin way back in Genesis 3:17, but in Romans 8:20-23, we see that the whole creation will be redeemed at the same time that we receive our resurrection bodies, and in Revelation 22:3 we learn that there is 'no more curse.' Why not? Because the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross has redeemed the whole creation.

    I don't insist upon that interpretation, but I think it is a valid one, and the NIV prevents the reader from making it, or even from considering and rejecting it.

    I might add that the NIV (1984) also fails to translate the word autos, 'He Himself,' and also gives an unsatisfactory rendering of hilasmos, which is properly translated 'propitiation.'
     
    #78 Martin Marprelate, Jun 30, 2018
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The one area where the Niv update seems to have been much better was in Sarx, as 1984 translated it as flesh all of the day!
     
    #79 Yeshua1, Jun 30, 2018
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well what do you know? MM likes your awkward, but accurate language skills.
     
    #80 Rippon, Jun 30, 2018
Page 4 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...