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Featured Isaiah 14:12: Lucifer, Satan, Morning Star

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rlvaughn, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    That is not an exaggeration, is it. That is a comparison. It is not the same as saying Babylon was as beautiful as Heaven
     
    #41 loDebar, Jul 18, 2018
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    To use loDebar’s logic we’re flying snakes or doves crawling on the ground hissing. Confused:Cautious:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:O O
     
    #42 SovereignGrace, Jul 18, 2018
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’[Isaiah 14:11b]

    No matter how hard you try to make you eisgesis fit into the text, this is not about a pre-fallen Satan, but about a Babylonian King’s body becoming worm-food.
     
    #43 SovereignGrace, Jul 18, 2018
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  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The passage is not an exaggeration, but your eisegesis is.
     
    #44 SovereignGrace, Jul 18, 2018
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  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no a person is to be wise as serpents seem to be and harmless as doves seem to be. double comparison
     
    #45 loDebar, Jul 18, 2018
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    following you thoughts, why is a human king dying and being in a grave exceptional? Why is that a threat?

    What human is called "son of morning" none

    What Human King of Babylon do you believe it was about?

    It was all prophesy , yet to be fufliied

    Isa 17:7

    The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
     
    #46 loDebar, Jul 18, 2018
  7. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I think you're on to something with that. Understanding both Akkadian cosmology and Assyrian royal pronouncements (especially threats made by the Assyrian kings in the course of conquest) explains much of the language, IMO, and the theme of much of Isaiah is, in fact, a prophecy that Assyria will be brought low because it has dared to challenge the universal sovereignty of the Hebrew god.

    The reference to the king of Babylon, BTW, is probably better understood as king of Assyria, a title that the Assyrian kings adopted after conquering Babylon. The king referred to in Isaiah 14 could well be Sargon II, whose body was left on the field of battle (All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out, away from your grave, like a loathed branch, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a dead body trampled underfoot.)
     
    #47 rsr, Jul 18, 2018
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    This King had subdued much of the inhabited earth. He was a feared man by many. So the demise of this King was something to behold.
     
    #48 SovereignGrace, Jul 18, 2018
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    A future event, from the time of writing, which king?
     
    #49 loDebar, Jul 19, 2018
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    In a way, Satan was king of Tyre & Babylon, as, after Nebuchadnezzar II, Satan's homeboys ruled Babylon til it fell. And Tyre had had such rulers til Babylon conquered it, by God's influence.

    But I believe that most of the Scripture in question refers to Satan.
     
    #50 robycop3, Jul 19, 2018
  11. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    It's idiomatic language from mythological origins. The language we are speaking is absolutely filled with it (halcyon, procrustean beds, between Scylla and Charybdis, Pyrrhic victory.)

    The king in question thought he was so great that he could displace God from the heavens. A meteoric rise followed by descent. A motif common in Ugaritic and Semitic mythology. Look at Attar and other ANE pagan gods associated with Venus, the morning star.
     
    #51 Rob_BW, Jul 19, 2018
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  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Who was the King then?
     
    #52 loDebar, Jul 19, 2018
  13. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I'm inclined to agree with @rsr.
     
    #53 Rob_BW, Jul 19, 2018
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    But he still could have been a stand in for Satan, as God used that king to describe and infer that the same qualities was shown by Satan Himself when he fell!
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2018
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    YLT
    How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.

    what human is ever called "son of the dawn" or son of morning?

    This argument is often used by those who do not believe Lucifer exists, ...strange?
     
    #55 loDebar, Jul 19, 2018
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  16. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Who doesn’t believe that Satan exists?

    He is present throughout the Bible. His existence doesn’t hinge on Isaiah 14, unless you're devoted more to the rendition of the fall in Milton's Paradise Lost.
     
    #56 Rob_BW, Jul 19, 2018
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  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    It would be interesting to see how you quantify that last question, which really seems more like an accusation.
     
    #57 rsr, Jul 19, 2018
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  18. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Many groups do not believe a person of Satan. Some Liberal Jews, I know and JW's teach it just the principle of evil inside us. This is one of the verses they use.

    Birds of a feather use the same verses incorrectly together.
     
    #58 loDebar, Jul 19, 2018
  19. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    So why slander people who believe Satan exists by conflating them with groups who don't?
     
    #59 Rob_BW, Jul 19, 2018
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  20. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    If you quote the same verses in the same way for the same purpose as these groups. what should I think you believe.

    It is like you describing the NY Yankees as one of their fans do, then say you are a Atl. Braves fan
     
    #60 loDebar, Jul 19, 2018
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