TULIP for Real Life

Forgive me but I am getting confused by your responses.

Can the dead heart respond to God's call or not?

 

It seems sad that I need to reply by reposting the portion of my post which you failed to quote in your response. Apparently we are talking past one another.

1. God drew a sinful Adam out of hiding in the bushes (before he was given a new heart).
2. A sinful "natural man" Adam was confronted with his sin and blamed God.
3. God then punished Adam with a curse and extended a measure of Grace and Mercy (spared his physical life for the moment by withholding the punishment of physical death that Adam deserved and offered hope for future redemption through the seed of the woman.)
4. At no point was repentance shown or was salvation promised to Adam. Soteriology is simply not dealt with in Genesis 3.

We must contrast this with the case of a modern man:

1. We are all born "natural man" with the no "pre-sin" period in our life and meet God for the first time also wanting to hide in the bushes. However God draws some sinners to Christ. (John 6:44)
2. At Christ we can hear the Gospel.
3. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to remove a dead heart and give us a living heart (Eph 2:1-10).
4. Only after the HS transforms us from a "natural man" who cannot understand spiritual things, to a Spiritual man that can, do we have the power to believe and have faith and repent and receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

Adam was promised none of what Jesus offers a modern man. God may have saved Adam (in fact I think it quite likely), however it is not the subject of Genesis 3.

... That and GOD CAN DRAW ANYONE HE PLEASES ... Adam, Job, Satan, Paul, Jonah ... with or without their permission and with an old or new heart! That's what it means to be a Sovereign, Omnipotent God.

 

How about contrasting it with Cain? Cain, murderous, unregenerate Cain. God told Cain that sin is lying at his door and that he should be the master of it. (Gen 4:7) Seems an odd thing for God to tell an unregenerate person--be victorious over sin. Isn't it?

 

Since I am so obviously confused, you could help me by answering my simple question. Can the dead heart respond to God's call or not?

 

Great! So when Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", He was speaking of all whether elected or not.

 

That is Great! So when Jesus also said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." that means that all men (whether elected or not) will be drawn to him and raised up on the last day.

And here I was always taught that Universalism was a heresy. Thank you for clearing that up.

How about if you exegete John 12:32 and explain the phrase "all men" since the Incas living in Central America were certainly not "drawn" to Jesus when he was "lifted up" on that cross 2000 years ago. Did Jesus misspeak?

 

Have at it.
I have never actually seen you exegete a verse so It should be enlightening.
I think Jesus said something similar to Peter and several comments to Judas.
I wonder if that is significant?

 

Ahhh....you see your dilemma. One step at a time brother, so you agree Jesus meant all men, whether elect or not?

 

Yes, I see my dilemma. When I attempt to accept Semi-Pelagian definitions, it leads to an inevitable slide into Universalism.

Now what does ALL MEN mean?
The natives of Central America were not drawn to Jesus when he died on the Cross, so all men cannot mean every single living person without exception. Can it?

 

You can not compare our status with Adam's and Eve's. They were created sinless, we were not.

 

No

 

Bruh...dead ppl can respond to God. God conversed with Satan, and he's as spiritually dead as they get. That's not the point we're making.

God conversed with Cain after he murdered Abel.

However, when we witness to lost ppl, it is like Ezekiel looking over that valley of very dry bones. If he had took it upon himself to speak to those bones, they would not and could not have listened to him, seeing they were dead. But it was once God gave the command to Ezekiel and Ezekiel spoke the words He told him to say, they reacted to those words.

That's a picture of the gospel and how it works. As we witness to the lost, if God moves as we are speaking to those who are spiritually dead, watch them come to life just like those bones did.

 

It's really very simple. Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit? No. Can a corrupt man bring forth faith? No. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, not corruption.

Total depravity is established.


Did Jacob choose himself? No. God chose Jacob while He was yet in the womb. You might say that God chose based on the foreknowledge that Jacob would be a better man than Esau, but we've already established that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. And though Esau despised his birthright, Jacob was a liar and a thief.

Unconditional Election is established.


Will all be saved? No. So you believe in limited atonement, you're just in disagreement on the limiter, but T and U being established above eliminates man's choice as an option for limiter.

Limited Atonement is established.


Irresistible Grace. In the natural world, there is a picture of this. Did you choose to be born? Did you choose your gender or race? God didn't give you a say in your existence or heritage, but He gives you the choice in your second birth? Did Paul have a choice? Did Lazarus have a choice? Did Jacob? A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, not even the fruit of repentance. We are a new creation. In the first creation, when God said, "Let there be light," could light have not appeared? Could Adam have not received the breath of God? And you think His new creation can refuse?

Irresistible Grace is established.


2 Corinthians 9:8 ff And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Perseverance of the Saints is established.

 

Wow, that was beautifully said.

 

I think the term you're looking for is 'incorruptible.' Adam and Eve were perfect, they were not incorruptible. To say they were imperfect implies a defect. They weren't defective, and they had no sin nature. They were perfectly holy and good and innocent.

But they weren't incorruptible.

I gotta go with Jesus on this one. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The acceptance of that maxim determines the conclusion that Adam, as long as he was good, could not disobey.

So corruption had crept in. I've been asked, when? I cannot say for certain, but I would say that Adam was corrupted by his communication with the Serpent. He believed the lie, that they would be as gods knowing good and evil, and that is not a choice one makes. I cannot choose to believe a lie any more than I can choose to believe the truth. I either believe what I'm being told, or I don't.

The thing that we learned from the law was that our exposure to corruption corrupts us. Touching something unclean made the clean unclean. Even if that exposure was not willful.

By permitting their exposure to a lie, it was in the will of God that this event come about, but it was Adam's choice, and it was not a free choice.

 

Thanks.