Featured What is Total Depravity, part deux?

I'm honored you want to still engage with me on this

Don't you find it interesting that out of all the times John uses "believe" in his Gospel it's a verb? And he never uses the noun "faith"?

Believe - πιστεύω

Faith- πίστις

And John uses "believe" as an imperative as well.

 

I'm going to try and make this my last post (at least for a little bit) on this issue.

Here is my perspective: I believe in an All-Powerful (omnipotent), Sovereign, and Wonderful God, the Creator and Sustainer of all Life. I believe He is the Most Beautiful and Precious being/Person. He is so beautiful that, even a lost person would desire to follow Him. He is so majestic that even an unregenerate would believe Him. He is so powerful and wise that even a sinner would trust Him. Total Depravity may be a good description of our humanity, but the omnipotent God of Love can break through the sinner's heart with the glorious message of Jesus Christ. Total Depravity does not outweigh the Glorious Realities of a Perfect and Powerful God of Mercy.

I believe in a God so power that He can give freewill to man and still be in control. I believe in a God so beautiful, that even a hopeless sinner would say, "Yes," to Him. I do not believe He is so weak that He has to regenerate the person first in order for the person to believe on Him. The Word of God and the Message of Christ and the Holy Spirit are powerful enough to draw a sinner to Him and to the place where they would believe on Him in order to be saved.

In my opinion, Calvin's Gospel does not bring more glory to God, it takes away from His glory. Its focus is on the depravity of man and how terrible he is (which has some merit obviously). I believe God's Love is so powerful that it could even convince a totally depraved person that they are sinners in a desperate need of a Savior.

Christ commands ALL to repent and believe the Gospel--and the Gospel Message is powerful and in and of itself Gives one enough reason to turn from their sin and self-absorbed ways and turn towards Christ, in full faith, trusting in His death and resurrection to bring us to God.

(and before someone says "so God is not glorious enough to attract all people to himself and be saved"--That's the point of freewill and the realities of His Sovereignty.)

 

The questions you and @TCassidy refuse to answer are "What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?"

I usually don't make a big deal of people not answering my questions. But you two insisted that I dodged a question which I did not dodge and implied that I was lying. Since this is a repeated behavior that has happened on more than one occasion, I wanted to make it a point that on this subject, you two are not interested in helping others understand what you believe and you have no interest in teaching people anything.

If your ideas are the best, simply sharing them and explaining them are all you need to do for others to see what a great idea it is and how they should adopt it as well. But your beliefs actually prevent you from trying this. You act very much like John Calvin who saw no redemption for those who disagreed with him and felt the best way to handle people who disagreed was to murder them.

Since you two can no longer murder people as easily as John Calvin did, you simply seek to condemn and belittle.

What is your definition of holy?

And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Why these two questions bothered you so much - I don't know. I don't see how these two questions are heresies. But the reaction to the questions shows something about your character.

I don't care about the meetings you copied and pasted and I doubt you even read them. Romans 5:12-19 does not conflict with what I have said in any way.

Marty

 

This is my whole point--Yes, i agree with you, that we are ensnared by sin, slaves to sin, held captive by Satan(the bible clearly tells us that), BUT God calls us to Himself and when we turn to Him, HE frees us. I believe His Love and Mercy is powerful enough to cause us to turn to Him. You believe Satan is too powerful and satan keeps us ensnared until God let's us go, first.

 

You're not understanding my point. I know the condition of the lost man, i know what the Bible clearly teaches. I'm not saying lost people just decide one day, "Hey, this isn't working out, i'm gonna get saved." What i'm saying is, God's love and mercy are so beautiful and powerful that even a Lost person would turn to Him when revealed by God Almighty.

Here is the difference between your understanding and mine--You believe that Satan is so powerful, that he will blind the hearts and minds of the unregenerate UNTIL God makes them regenerate. I believe that God is so powerful that He can attract a lost person to Him (through the Gospel) and when that person turns from sin and satan, God then makes Him regenerate.

 

So, answer the simple question--do you believe God must regenerate you first before you would want to believe God's Truth? Simple yes or no would suffice.

 

I personally reject that one must be regenerated first before they can believe for four reasons:

1. Regeneration and Salvation are the exact same thing.
2. Scripture does not make such a distinction.
3. Being saved (regenerated) before one believes in order to be saved (regenerated) makes no sense.
4. The gospel is the power to salvation and faith comes not from salvation (regeneration) but from the gospel. The gospel enables one to believe. Salvation (regeneration) is a result of believe.

gospel presented > gospel received > faith enacted > salvation (regeneration) provided.

 

First of all, Shame on you for quoting my response to @SovereignGrace and attributing it to yourself.

Secondly, Do you believe Scripture? 2 Corinthians 4:4 - whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Do not play this victim card. So, let's focus on your statements--do you believe *sin* is so powerful that God cannot turn you from it before regenerating you? Do you think sin is more beautiful than God?

 

I agree

No it doesn't

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Nope they are the same thing. As I read scripture I see that God's grace (the gospel) doesn't need more grace to be effective.

“…and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” -2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-16‬

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

Believing is a result of the gospel not regeneration. Regeneration and salvation are two sides of the same coin.

The grace is the gospel being sent and preached to the lost. I believe the gospel is sufficient. Apparently you do not.