What is Total Depravity, part deux?

[JonShaff]

If you truly turn to Him, you have already been set free. The fallen, lost, dead man can not, and will not do this, seeing he is unable to do so.

There is no scriptural support to say a lost man cannot believe. He cannot break free of his bonds to sin. But he is still able to believe or not believe.

It would be like the Christ seeing Lazarus coming out of the tomb and then making him alive.

I'm not sure how Lazurus, a depiction of the Resurrection, has to do with what we are talking about.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes, he is (already) regenerated because the unregenerate man cannot know these things. The very fact that he does believe them means he has already had his "new beginning" and now believes. You have cause and effect reversed. He does not have a new beginning because he had something he didn't have. He has a new beginning which enables him to know these things.

Paul told the Philippian Jailer, "Believe"--Verb;imperative--"And then you shall be saved." You seem to think he said, "If you find yourself believing then you can be assured that you have been saved."

 

[SovereignGrace]

We see things differently

That's about as far as it can go.

When a person Believes God at His Word Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is regenerated. After regeneration, THEN can a person understand the realities of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And believing is the result of regeneration. The very moment you believe, you are saved. Regeneration and salvation occur at the exact same time.

 

[JonShaff]

Satan has the lost blinded and can not understand the light of the gospel

Praise God that His word doesn't say we have to "Understand", but that we are to "Believe" in order to be saved. Understanding comes after.

 

[TCassidy]

There is no scriptural support to say a lost man cannot believe.

Do you see how preposterous that statement is? A lost man is, by definition, an unbeliever. Yet you say an unbeliever believes. That is an oxymoron of the first order.

 

[JonShaff]

And believing is the result of regeneration. The very moment you believe, you are saved. Regeneration and salvation occur at the exact same time.

You can keep saying the same thing over and over and it will not make it true. The Scriptures are very clear on the subject. You are looking at them through the lens of calvinism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.

 

[JonShaff]

Do you see how preposterous that statement is? A lost man is, by definition, an unbeliever. Yet you say an unbeliever believes. That is an oxymoron of the first order.

The moment he believes he becomes a believer. It's pretty simple. Not sure why you want to make that difficult?

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is no scriptural support to say a lost man cannot believe. He cannot break free of his bonds to sin. But he is still able to believe or not believe.

I'm not sure how Lazurus, a depiction of the Resurrection, has to do with what we are talking about.

2 Corinthians 4:4 says the lost are blinded by Satan and can not see the light of the gospel. They can not believe in God in this blinded state.

Lazarus is an example of how God brings the dead to life and they respond.

 

[Revmitchell]

Satan has the lost blinded and can not understand the light of the gospel. Man, in this fallen state can and will not, seek God. That’s why he must be first set free. The very moment they’re set free, they’re saved.

None seeks after God does not mean none can respond.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You can keep saying the same thing over and over and it will not make it true. The Scriptures are very clear on the subject. You are looking at them through the lens of calvinism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.

The very moment an unbeliever believes, they become a believer. Belief is trusting in something/someone. If one has belief, they have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22.

 

[Revmitchell]

Lazarus is an example of how God brings the dead to life and they respond.

No it's not and scripture never says it is.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Corinthians 4:4 says the lost are blinded by Satan and can not see the light of the gospel. They can not believe in God in this blinded state.

So, Satan's lies are more powerful than God's Truths?

Lazarus is an example of how God brings the dead to life and they respond.

John 11
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Your calvinism makes you interpret this as a born again experience...context says otherwise. Get rid of the glasses, bro.

 

[SovereignGrace]

None seeks after God does not mean none can respond.

If one does not seek God they will not be saved.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do you see how preposterous that statement is? A lost man is, by definition, an unbeliever. Yet you say an unbeliever believes. That is an oxymoron of the first order.

Brother that is not what he said. At all.

 

[Revmitchell]

If one does not seek God they will not be saved.

They will when God seeks after them with the gospel. Romans 1:16, Romans 10:17

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, Satan's lies are more powerful than God's Truths?

I never said that, so stop with these attacks, okay?

It’s only when God works and overcomes their blindness due to Satan can they see and believe. Jesus said the strong man must be bound up and then his house can be plundered. God binds up Satan, casts him out and now lives in us.

John 11
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Your calvinism makes you interpret this as a born again experience...context says otherwise. Get rid of the glasses, bro.

It shows how God gives life to the dead unilaterally. Jesus said He quickens, makes alive, whomever He wills.[John 5:21]

 

[SovereignGrace]

They will when God seeks after them with the gospel. Romans 1:16, Romans 10:17

Okay, I agree. I read an article from April, 2018, when Alliance for the unreached said that 3.2 billion ppl have not heard the gospel. How can those who died never hearing it have believed in God?

 

[JonShaff]

I never said that, so stop with these attacks, okay?

Bro, you're not taking the "Train to the station". You can't make claims about a passage and then be reckless about its conclusion.

It’s only when God works and overcomes their blindness due to Satan can they see and believe. Jesus said the strong man must be bound up and then his house can be plundered. God binds up Satan, casts him out and now lives in us.

The Gospel is powerful enough to penetrate the "blindness" of the deceived.

It shows how God gives life to the dead unilaterally. Jesus said He quickens, makes alive, whomever He wills.[John 5:21]

Your theological framework causes you to see John 11 that way.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wayne Peterson of the ‘Alliance for the Unreached’ told CBN news “Out of the seven billion people on planet Earth, I think it’s 3.2 billion people, which is about 40 percent of the population, have no opportunity to hear the gospel where they live, in their location.


'More Than One-Third of Humanity Will Never Hear About Jesus': Day to Reach the Unreached Set for May 20

 

[Revmitchell]

Okay, I agree. I read an article from April, 2018, when Alliance for the unreached said that 3.2 billion ppl have not heard the gospel. How can those who died never hearing it have believed in God?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.