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Featured What is Total Depravity, part deux?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Sep 17, 2018.

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  1. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    There is no scriptural support to say a lost man cannot believe. He cannot break free of his bonds to sin. But he is still able to believe or not believe.
    I'm not sure how Lazurus, a depiction of the Resurrection, has to do with what we are talking about.
     
    #41 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Paul told the Philippian Jailer, "Believe"--Verb;imperative--"And then you shall be saved." You seem to think he said, "If you find yourself believing then you can be assured that you have been saved."
     
    #42 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And believing is the result of regeneration. The very moment you believe, you are saved. Regeneration and salvation occur at the exact same time.
     
    #43 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
  4. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Praise God that His word doesn't say we have to "Understand", but that we are to "Believe" in order to be saved. Understanding comes after.
     
    #44 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Do you see how preposterous that statement is? A lost man is, by definition, an unbeliever. Yet you say an unbeliever believes. That is an oxymoron of the first order.
     
    #45 TCassidy, Sep 19, 2018
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  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    You can keep saying the same thing over and over and it will not make it true. The Scriptures are very clear on the subject. You are looking at them through the lens of calvinism. Set aside your presuppositions for on conversation.
     
    #46 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    The moment he believes he becomes a believer. It's pretty simple. Not sure why you want to make that difficult?
     
    #47 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    2 Corinthians 4:4 says the lost are blinded by Satan and can not see the light of the gospel. They can not believe in God in this blinded state.

    Lazarus is an example of how God brings the dead to life and they respond.
     
    #48 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    None seeks after God does not mean none can respond.
     
    #49 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2018
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    The very moment an unbeliever believes, they become a believer. Belief is trusting in something/someone. If one has belief, they have faith. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, per Galatians 5:22.
     
    #50 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No it's not and scripture never says it is.
     
    #51 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2018
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  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    So, Satan's lies are more powerful than God's Truths?

    John 11
    23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

    24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

    25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

    Your calvinism makes you interpret this as a born again experience...context says otherwise. Get rid of the glasses, bro.
     
    #52 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    If one does not seek God they will not be saved.
     
    #53 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Brother that is not what he said. At all.
     
    #54 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2018
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    They will when God seeks after them with the gospel. Romans 1:16, Romans 10:17
     
    #55 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2018
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  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I never said that, so stop with these attacks, okay?

    It’s only when God works and overcomes their blindness due to Satan can they see and believe. Jesus said the strong man must be bound up and then his house can be plundered. God binds up Satan, casts him out and now lives in us.

    It shows how God gives life to the dead unilaterally. Jesus said He quickens, makes alive, whomever He wills.[John 5:21]
     
    #56 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Okay, I agree. I read an article from April, 2018, when Alliance for the unreached said that 3.2 billion ppl have not heard the gospel. How can those who died never hearing it have believed in God?
     
    #57 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
  18. JonShaff

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    Bro, you're not taking the "Train to the station". You can't make claims about a passage and then be reckless about its conclusion.
    The Gospel is powerful enough to penetrate the "blindness" of the deceived.
    Your theological framework causes you to see John 11 that way.
     
    #58 JonShaff, Sep 19, 2018
  19. SovereignGrace

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    #59 SovereignGrace, Sep 19, 2018
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
    Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
     
    #60 Revmitchell, Sep 19, 2018
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