What is Total Depravity, part deux?

[TCassidy]

No it doesn't

Yes, it does.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Exactly. God's children had no part in their rebirth just as we had no part in our own births.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Exactly. Gospel preaching is the means God uses to dispense His grace to the hearers.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Yes. By the Grace imparted in regeneration a sinner is enabled to confess and believe.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Exactly. The Gospel call is used by God to draw the sinner unto Himself.

Nope they are the same thing. As I read scripture I see that God's grace (the gospel) doesn't need more grace to be effective.

The Gospel is the message. Grace is what saves.

Believing is a result of the gospel not regeneration. Regeneration and salvation are two sides of the same coin.

Belief is the result of regenerating Grace.

The grace is the gospel being sent and preached to the lost. I believe the gospel is sufficient.

The message is the good news of Christ's work on our behalf. Grace is what saves us. "For by Grace you are saved . . . "

Apparently you do not.

You may want to reconsider accusing me of not believing the Gospel is sufficient.

 

[Revmitchell]

. "

You may want to reconsider accusing me of not believing the Gospel is sufficient.

I would love to be able to but if you believe regenerating grace is necessary to believe the gospel then you do not believe it is sufficient. Those are your words not mine.

 

[JonShaff]

Belief is the result of regenerating Grace.

So, a person is made righteous and alive before believing? I do not accept that. And i do not believe the Bible Teaches that.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, a person is made righteous and alive before believing? I do not accept that. And i do not believe the Bible Teaches that.

If you did you would not believe the gospel is sufficient.

 

[TCassidy]

First of all, Shame on you for quoting my response to @SovereignGrace and attributing it to yourself.

As you very well know he and I believe pretty much the same. Don't try to wiggle out of your post, made in an open forum.

Secondly, Do you believe Scripture?

You really don't want to go there. Really.

Do not play this victim card.

You really should stick to the discussion and not make untrue accusations about me or other board members. It will not end well.

So, let's focus on your statements--do you believe *sin* is so powerful that God cannot turn you from it before regenerating you?

I believe my sinful nature is at enmity against God, and that the regenerating Grace of God, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. And it is that giving me new life in Christ that is God turning me from my bondage to sin to my being bound to the law of new Life in Christ.

Do you think sin is more beautiful than God?

Why do you ask such questions? Are you trying to get your posts reported?

 

[JonShaff]

As you very well know he and I believe pretty much the same. Don't try to wiggle out of your post, made in an open forum.

You really don't want to go there. Really.

You really should stick to the discussion and not make untrue accusations about me or other board members. It will not end well.

I believe my sinful nature is at enmity against God, and that the regenerating Grace of God, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. And it is that giving me new life in Christ that is God turning me from my bondage to sin to my being bound to the law of new Life in Christ.


Why do you ask such questions? Are you trying to get your posts reported?

Your responses to me are a result of cognitive dissonance. When faced with reality , they (biblical conclusions) do not line up with what you believe (taking your theological train to the station).

If i stated anything this is worthy of reporting, help me understand what i said wrong.

I believe that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God's ministry is potent enough to turn a lost man to Christ without the act of regeneration. You have claimed it is not, that one has to be regenerated first.

 

[TCassidy]

So, a person is made righteous and alive before believing? I do not accept that. And i do not believe the Bible Teaches that.

God's grace enables us to believe, repent, and obey.
Let me turn your question back to you. Do you believe an unbeliever believes? Can a lost person believe? Where does Grace fit into your system? Can you believe apart from God's enabling Grace?

 

[JonShaff]

God's grace enables us to believe, repent, and obey.
Let me turn your question back to you. Do you believe an unbeliever believes? Can a lost person believe? Where does Grace fit into your system? Can you believe apart from God's enabling Grace?

First, i honestly want to thank you for being more interactive in this response. This, to me, is what healthy conversation is all about. Too often, we (i'm guilty of it) just fire off what we believe instead of trying to understand the other person's POV.

Now, i believe Scripture teaches that God through His Holy Spirit and Word reveals Himself to Be True through the Gospel Message--Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures. Christ rose from the dead three days later, according to the Scriptures--and this is to be believed to receive God's Free gift of eternal life--life with God in Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2; Romans 1:16-17; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 2; Hebrews 4:12; John 16). Trusting/believing/Faith-ing in Christ is produced through the message of the Christ.

Paul didn't tell the Philippian Jailer, "If one day you find yourself believing, you will know that you have been saved." He gave him an imperative (verb), "Believe" and you "shall be saved."

Can i believe apart from God's enabling Grace? i'm not quite sure how to answer that, we believe in things all the time. Is that a common grace given to all? Sounds like that is what gives us autonomy. Can my sin nature prevent me from believing? I do not believe so. My sin nature caused me to be a slave to sin, not take away a person's ability to believe or reject.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm going to try and make this my last post (at least for a little bit) on this issue.

Here is my perspective: I believe in an All-Powerful (omnipotent), Sovereign, and Wonderful God, the Creator and Sustainer of all Life. I believe He is the Most Beautiful and Precious being/Person. He is so beautiful that, even a lost person would desire to follow Him. He is so majestic that even an unregenerate would believe Him. He is so powerful and wise that even a sinner would trust Him. Total Depravity may be a good description of our humanity, but the omnipotent God of Love can break through the sinner's heart with the glorious message of Jesus Christ. Total Depravity does not outweigh the Glorious Realities of a Perfect and Powerful God of Mercy.

I believe in a God so power that He can give freewill to man and still be in control. I believe in a God so beautiful, that even a hopeless sinner would say, "Yes," to Him. I do not believe He is so weak that He has to regenerate the person first in order for the person to believe on Him. The Word of God and the Message of Christ and the Holy Spirit are powerful enough to draw a sinner to Him and to the place where they would believe on Him in order to be saved.

In my opinion, Calvin's Gospel does not bring more glory to God, it takes away from His glory. Its focus is on the depravity of man and how terrible he is (which has some merit obviously). I believe God's Love is so powerful that it could even convince a totally depraved person that they are sinners in a desperate need of a Savior.

Christ commands ALL to repent and believe the Gospel--and the Gospel Message is powerful and in and of itself Gives one enough reason to turn from their sin and self-absorbed ways and turn towards Christ, in full faith, trusting in His death and resurrection to bring us to God.

(and before someone says "so God is not glorious enough to attract all people to himself and be saved"--That's the point of freewill and the realities of His Sovereignty.)

Do yuo think that God MUSt make it so that all sinners will get saved? That all deserve a shot at salvation? Since we all are sinners whoa re at war with and against Him from birth, how would we freely respond to all of a sudden love to a being that we all want to NOT be Our Lord, as we all love to play God ourselves?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, answer the simple question--do you believe God must regenerate you first before you would want to believe God's Truth? Simple yes or no would suffice.

Yes, for unless God iniates salvation towards us first Himself, none would ever be saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

@JonShaff posted this and it was directed at @Yeshua1...




That's not even remotely close to what he was saying. No more than you mocked divine quickening by calling it a 'divine spark' in response to another one of his posts.

Lost ppl are spiritually dead and have no faith in God. The very moment someone has faith, they're saved...not before or sometime afterwards, but they very moment they have faith, they are justified, saved, declared righteous before God.

God is the one who has to open the hearts and minds of lost sinners in order to have any respond to Jesus first...

 

[Yeshua1]

The questions you and @TCassidy refuse to answer are "What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?"

I usually don't make a big deal of people not answering my questions. But you two insisted that I dodged a question which I did not dodge and implied that I was lying. Since this is a repeated behavior that has happened on more than one occasion, I wanted to make it a point that on this subject, you two are not interested in helping others understand what you believe and you have no interest in teaching people anything.

If your ideas are the best, simply sharing them and explaining them are all you need to do for others to see what a great idea it is and how they should adopt it as well. But your beliefs actually prevent you from trying this. You act very much like John Calvin who saw no redemption for those who disagreed with him and felt the best way to handle people who disagreed was to murder them.

Since you two can no longer murder people as easily as John Calvin did, you simply seek to condemn and belittle.

What is your definition of holy?

And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Why these two questions bothered you so much - I don't know. I don't see how these two questions are heresies. But the reaction to the questions shows something about your character.

I don't care about the meetings you copied and pasted and I doubt you even read them. Romans 5:12-19 does not conflict with what I have said in any way.

Marty

ONLY God is really Holy,as that is one of His attributes, and he saved are those to whom he credits the holiness of Jesus unto us when forgiven and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise!

 

[Yeshua1]

So, a person is made righteous and alive before believing? I do not accept that. And i do not believe the Bible Teaches that.

You believe that a lost sinner can believe in jesus apart from the working of the Holy Spirit to enable Him to do that?

 

[TCassidy]

Your responses to me are a result of cognitive dissonance. When faced with reality , they (biblical conclusions) do not line up with what you believe (taking your theological train to the station).

When "reality" contradicts the word of God, "reality" is not real, but a deception.

And please, for the last time, stop the personal attacks. Not agreeing on your part does not constitute cognitive dissonance on my part.

If i stated anything this is worthy of reporting, help me understand what i said wrong.

When you said "Do you think sin is more beautiful than God?" you know I don't and the comment was a back door attack on my faith in God.

I believe that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God's ministry is potent enough to turn a lost man to Christ without the act of regeneration.

Regeneration, in the context of Christianity is a "new beginning." If the Holy Spirit and the word of God's ministry is not the basis of the "new beginning" - of the "new life in Christ" then what is? If a person has already turned away from his sin and turned to Christ as Savior and believes and repents why does he need to be regenerated. It looks to me as if he already has the "new beginning." Yet Christ said without regeneration a man can't see (perceive, know, understand) the Kingdom of God. So, again, what good is regeneration if you already perceive, know, and understand those spiritual things?

 

[JonShaff]

So, again, what good is regeneration if you already perceive, know, and understand those spiritual things?

We see things differently

That's about as far as it can go.

When a person Believes God at His Word Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is regenerated. After regeneration, THEN can a person understand the realities of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, a person is made righteous and alive before believing? I do not accept that. And i do not believe the Bible Teaches that.

No. At the same time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is my whole point--Yes, i agree with you, that we are ensnared by sin, slaves to sin, held captive by Satan(the bible clearly tells us that), BUT God calls us to Himself and when we turn to Him, HE frees us. I believe His Love and Mercy is powerful enough to cause us to turn to Him. You believe Satan is too powerful and satan keeps us ensnared until God let's us go, first.

If you truly turn to Him, you have already been set free. The fallen, lost, dead man can not, and will not do this, seeing he is unable to do so.

It would be like the Christ seeing Lazarus coming out of the tomb and then making him alive.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I personally reject that one must be regenerated first before they can believe for four reasons:

1. Regeneration and Salvation are the exact same thing.
2. Scripture does not make such a distinction.
3. Being saved (regenerated) before one believes in order to be saved (regenerated) makes no sense.
4. The gospel is the power to salvation and faith comes not from salvation (regeneration) but from the gospel. The gospel enables one to believe. Salvation (regeneration) is a result of believe.

gospel presented > gospel received > faith enacted > salvation (regeneration) provided.

Regeneration is being born again.
Salvation is being saved from your sins.

They are not the same thing, but happen at the same time. No one is saved w/o being regenerated and vice versa.

 

[TCassidy]

We see things differently

Yes, but I can articulate what I believe and post scripture that supports it.

Can you explain to me what good is regeneration if you already perceive, know, and understand spiritual things? What is the purpose of that "new beginning" if you are already well on your way?

That's about as far as it can go.

And that is what is so troubling. You can't seem to articulate what good is regeneration if you already perceive, know, and understand those spiritual things?

When a person Believes God at His Word Concerning the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is regenerated. After regeneration, THEN can a person understand the realities of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, he is (already) regenerated because the unregenerate man cannot know these things. The very fact that he does believe them means he has already had his "new beginning" and now believes. You have cause and effect reversed. He does not have a new beginning because he had something he didn't have. He has a new beginning which enables him to know these things.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[SovereignGrace]

You're not understanding my point. I know the condition of the lost man, i know what the Bible clearly teaches. I'm not saying lost people just decide one day, "Hey, this isn't working out, i'm gonna get saved." What i'm saying is, God's love and mercy are so beautiful and powerful that even a Lost person would turn to Him when revealed by God Almighty.

Here is the difference between your understanding and mine--You believe that Satan is so powerful, that he will blind the hearts and minds of the unregenerate UNTIL God makes them regenerate. I believe that God is so powerful that He can attract a lost person to Him (through the Gospel) and when that person turns from sin and satan, God then makes Him regenerate.

Satan has the lost blinded and can not understand the light of the gospel. Man, in this fallen state can and will not, seek God. That’s why he must be first set free. The very moment they’re set free, they’re saved.