What is Total Depravity, part deux?

[SovereignGrace]

I am starting this thread because the previous once was locked before I could respond...

@JonShaff posted this...

Quoted by @JonShaff

Once again, you are conflating Faith.

Faith/Believe in John 20:31 is a Verb

Faith in Galatians 5:22 is a Noun

I agree with you. Faith is a noun and believe/belief/believing is a verb. Those who have faith exercise(put faith into action, which by definition, is a verb) their belief. You will not believe in anything you do not have faith in.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@MartyF quoted this...

Quoted by @MartyF
Yep, I answered. You and Soveriegn Grace have not the guts to answer.

This was also directed to @TCassidy

What is there to answer? Your heresies? You are averring Pelagianism on here. You are saying ppl are born tabula rasa, the very thing Pelagius averred, and was deemed heresy by...

• Councils of Carthage (412, 416 and 418)

• Council of Ephesus (431)

• The Council of Orange (529)

• Council of Trent (1546) Roman Catholic

• 2nd Helvetic (1561/66) 8-9. (Swiss-German Reformed)

• Augsburg Confession (1530) Art. 9, 18 (Lutheran)

• Gallican Confession (1559) Art. 10 (French Reformed)

• Belgic Confession (1561) Art. 15 (Lowlands, French/Dutch/German Reformed)

• The Anglican Articles (1571), 9. (English)

• Canons of Dort (1618-9), 3/4.2 (Dutch/German/French Reformed).

I got these from Pelagianism | CARM.org


All one has to do is read Romans 5:12-19 to shoot your heresies down.

 

[JonShaff]

I am starting this thread because the previous once was locked before I could respond...

@JonShaff posted this...




I agree with you. Faith is a noun and believe/belief/believing is a verb. Those who have faith exercise(put faith into action, which by definition, is a verb) their belief. You will not believe in anything you do not have faith in.

I'm honored you want to still engage with me on this

Don't you find it interesting that out of all the times John uses "believe" in his Gospel it's a verb? And he never uses the noun "faith"?

Believe - πιστεύω

Faith- πίστις

And John uses "believe" as an imperative as well.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm honored you want to still engage with me on this

Don't you find it interesting that out of all the times John uses "believe" in his Gospel it's a verb? And he never uses the noun "faith"?

Believe - πιστεύω

Faith- πίστις

And John uses "believe" as an imperative as well.

Yes, I agree with EVERYTHING you posted about belief. Faith is never dormant, its always active. A dead faith is no faith at all.

No unregenerate person has faith, seeing that the very moment they have faith, they are justified. [Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:33]

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm honored you want to still engage with me on this

Don't you find it interesting that out of all the times John uses "believe" in his Gospel it's a verb? And he never uses the noun "faith"?

Believe - πιστεύω

Faith- πίστις

And John uses "believe" as an imperative as well.

You are trying to divorce one from the other, or it seems that way to me. No one will have faith in God w/o believing in Him, and no one who does not believe in God will have faith in Him. They are mutually inclusive, whereas you seem to be saying they're mutually exclusive.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@JonShaff posted this and it was directed at @Yeshua1...

Quoted by @JonShaff
You act like "believing" is like some special power inside a person in a metaphysical sense. This speaks of a Sci-Fi movie more than it does the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's not even remotely close to what he was saying. No more than you mocked divine quickening by calling it a 'divine spark' in response to another one of his posts.

Lost ppl are spiritually dead and have no faith in God. The very moment someone has faith, they're saved...not before or sometime afterwards, but they very moment they have faith, they are justified, saved, declared righteous before God.

 

[JonShaff]

You are trying to divorce one from the other, or it seems that way to me. No one will have faith in God w/o believing in Him, and no one who does not believe in God will have faith in Him. They are mutually inclusive, whereas you seem to be saying they're mutually exclusive.

@JonShaff posted this and it was directed at @Yeshua1...




That's not even remotely close to what he was saying. No more than you mocked divine quickening by calling it a 'divine spark' in response to another one of his posts.

Lost ppl are spiritually dead and have no faith in God. The very moment someone has faith, they're saved...not before or sometime afterwards, but they very moment they have faith, they are justified, saved, declared righteous before God.

I'm going to try and make this my last post (at least for a little bit) on this issue.

Here is my perspective: I believe in an All-Powerful (omnipotent), Sovereign, and Wonderful God, the Creator and Sustainer of all Life. I believe He is the Most Beautiful and Precious being/Person. He is so beautiful that, even a lost person would desire to follow Him. He is so majestic that even an unregenerate would believe Him. He is so powerful and wise that even a sinner would trust Him. Total Depravity may be a good description of our humanity, but the omnipotent God of Love can break through the sinner's heart with the glorious message of Jesus Christ. Total Depravity does not outweigh the Glorious Realities of a Perfect and Powerful God of Mercy.

I believe in a God so power that He can give freewill to man and still be in control. I believe in a God so beautiful, that even a hopeless sinner would say, "Yes," to Him. I do not believe He is so weak that He has to regenerate the person first in order for the person to believe on Him. The Word of God and the Message of Christ and the Holy Spirit are powerful enough to draw a sinner to Him and to the place where they would believe on Him in order to be saved.

In my opinion, Calvin's Gospel does not bring more glory to God, it takes away from His glory. Its focus is on the depravity of man and how terrible he is (which has some merit obviously). I believe God's Love is so powerful that it could even convince a totally depraved person that they are sinners in a desperate need of a Savior.

Christ commands ALL to repent and believe the Gospel--and the Gospel Message is powerful and in and of itself Gives one enough reason to turn from their sin and self-absorbed ways and turn towards Christ, in full faith, trusting in His death and resurrection to bring us to God.

(and before someone says "so God is not glorious enough to attract all people to himself and be saved"--That's the point of freewill and the realities of His Sovereignty.)

 

[MartyF]

What is there to answer? Your heresies? You are averring Pelagianism on here. You are saying ppl are born tabula rasa, the very thing Pelagius averred, and was deemed heresy by...

• Councils of Carthage (412, 416 and 418)

• Council of Ephesus (431)

• The Council of Orange (529)

• Council of Trent (1546) Roman Catholic

• 2nd Helvetic (1561/66) 8-9. (Swiss-German Reformed)

• Augsburg Confession (1530) Art. 9, 18 (Lutheran)

• Gallican Confession (1559) Art. 10 (French Reformed)

• Belgic Confession (1561) Art. 15 (Lowlands, French/Dutch/German Reformed)

• The Anglican Articles (1571), 9. (English)

• Canons of Dort (1618-9), 3/4.2 (Dutch/German/French Reformed).

I got these from Pelagianism | CARM.org


All one has to do is read Romans 5:12-19 to shoot your heresies down.

The questions you and @TCassidy refuse to answer are "What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?"

I usually don't make a big deal of people not answering my questions. But you two insisted that I dodged a question which I did not dodge and implied that I was lying. Since this is a repeated behavior that has happened on more than one occasion, I wanted to make it a point that on this subject, you two are not interested in helping others understand what you believe and you have no interest in teaching people anything.

If your ideas are the best, simply sharing them and explaining them are all you need to do for others to see what a great idea it is and how they should adopt it as well. But your beliefs actually prevent you from trying this. You act very much like John Calvin who saw no redemption for those who disagreed with him and felt the best way to handle people who disagreed was to murder them.

Since you two can no longer murder people as easily as John Calvin did, you simply seek to condemn and belittle.

What is your definition of holy?

And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Why these two questions bothered you so much - I don't know. I don't see how these two questions are heresies. But the reaction to the questions shows something about your character.

I don't care about the meetings you copied and pasted and I doubt you even read them. Romans 5:12-19 does not conflict with what I have said in any way.

Marty

 

[TCassidy]

"What is your definition of holy?

In God it is sinless perfection. In man it is being set apart for God's service.

And how is perfectly holy different from holy?"

In relation to man it is a reference to an unattainable, in this life, goal.

Why these two questions bothered you so much - I don't know.

They didn't bother me at all. I did not take them seriously as anyone with any knowledge of the bible and/or Christianity would know the answer.

I don't see how these two questions are heresies.

Nobody said they were.

But the reaction to the questions shows something about your character.

Really? My considering the questions to be trolling says something about my character? Well, you may be right. I have been on the BB since the summer of 2000, and those who know me know I tend to be impatient with trolls. I am known for:

1. I don't suffer fools gladly.

2. I do not celebrate stupidity.

3. I do not consider ignorance a virtue.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The questions you and @TCassidy refuse to answer are "What is your definition of holy? And how is perfectly holy different from holy?"

I usually don't make a big deal of people not answering my questions. But you two insisted that I dodged a question which I did not dodge and implied that I was lying. Since this is a repeated behavior that has happened on more than one occasion, I wanted to make it a point that on this subject, you two are not interested in helping others understand what you believe and you have no interest in teaching people anything.

If your ideas are the best, simply sharing them and explaining them are all you need to do for others to see what a great idea it is and how they should adopt it as well. But your beliefs actually prevent you from trying this. You act very much like John Calvin who saw no redemption for those who disagreed with him and felt the best way to handle people who disagreed was to murder them.

Since you two can no longer murder people as easily as John Calvin did, you simply seek to condemn and belittle.

What is your definition of holy?

And how is perfectly holy different from holy?

Why these two questions bothered you so much - I don't know. I don't see how these two questions are heresies. But the reaction to the questions shows something about your character.

I don't care about the meetings you copied and pasted and I doubt you even read them. Romans 5:12-19 does not conflict with what I have said in any way.

Marty

God is my definition of holy and He is the standard by which holiness is measured. The only reason why I am holy is because I have been placed in Christ and imputed His righteousness.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm going to try and make this my last post (at least for a little bit) on this issue.

Awwww, don't bow out. I think this can be a fruitful discussion.

Here is my perspective: I believe in an All-Powerful (omnipotent), Sovereign, and Wonderful God, the Creator and Sustainer of all Life. I believe He is the Most Beautiful and Precious being/Person.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on EVERYTHING you have posted here.

He is so beautiful that, even a lost person would desire to follow Him. He is so majestic that even an unregenerate would believe Him. He is so powerful and wise that even a sinner would trust Him. Total Depravity may be a good description of our humanity, but the omnipotent God of Love can break through the sinner's heart with the glorious message of Jesus Christ. Total Depravity does not outweigh the Glorious Realities of a Perfect and Powerful God of Mercy.

And here your theology has went off the rails. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never desire to follow Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never believe in Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never trust Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man is devoid of faith, and that is the one thing that can please Him.[Hebrews 11:6]

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.[Romans 8:5-9 ESV]

Again, we see the two types of ppl in the world in the above passage: the lost and the saved; the unregenerate and the regenerate. The lost, unregenerate person can not please God[vs 8] Why can't the lost, unregenerate person please God? He is devoid of faith, the one thing that does please God.[Hebrews 11:6] The lost, unregenerate person has their mind set on the things of the flesh, and their heart is hostile towards God, and he is at enmity with Him. He has an ill will towards God.

I believe in a God so power that He can give freewill to man and still be in control. I believe in a God so beautiful, that even a hopeless sinner would say, "Yes," to Him. I do not believe He is so weak that He has to regenerate the person first in order for the person to believe on Him. The Word of God and the Message of Christ and the Holy Spirit are powerful enough to draw a sinner to Him and to the place where they would believe on Him in order to be saved.

The sooner you chuck free will out the window, the better it will be for you. The fallen, lost, unregenerate person has a will that is enslaved to sin. Jesus said “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."[Matthew 6:24 ESV] He also said “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."[John 8:34] The lost are slaves to Satan and sin, and their wills are not free. As Jesus also said "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”[John 8:31,32] Only the Christ can set one's will free.

In my opinion, Calvin's Gospel does not bring more glory to God, it takes away from His glory. Its focus is on the depravity of man and how terrible he is (which has some merit obviously). I believe God's Love is so powerful that it could even convince a totally depraved person that they are sinners in a desperate need of a Savior.

No. First off, it's not Calvin's gospel, but the Christ's gospel. Jesus stated He would give His life for the sheep.[John 10:11] He also was not praying for the world, but those who the Father gave Him. And not only those, but all those who would believe their words.[John 17:9 and John 17:20,21] He also told those self-righteous Pharisees, Saducees, chief priests, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.[John 10:25,26] Not everyone is the Lord's sheep, not everyone does He Shepherd over.

Christ commands ALL to repent and believe the Gospel--and the Gospel Message is powerful and in and of itself Gives one enough reason to turn from their sin and self-absorbed ways and turn towards Christ, in full faith, trusting in His death and resurrection to bring us to God.

Yes. All are commanded to repent and believe. But just because many are not able to repent, does not negate the command to repent and believe. We are commanded to be as holy as He is, and we are not able to do that. That does not negate the command. We are to observe the Ten Commands, yet we are not able to keep them sinlessly as the Christ did. That doesn't make the command to keep them any less in effect.

(and before someone says "so God is not glorious enough to attract all people to himself and be saved"--That's the point of freewill and the realities of His Sovereignty.)

Again, the sooner you chuck free will out the window, the better it will be for you. Fallen man's will is not free at all, but enslaved, ensnared, encapsulated by Satan and sin.

 

[JonShaff]

Again, the sooner you chuck free will out the window, the better it will be for you. Fallen man's will is not free at all, but enslaved, ensnared, encapsulated by Satan and sin.

This is my whole point--Yes, i agree with you, that we are ensnared by sin, slaves to sin, held captive by Satan(the bible clearly tells us that), BUT God calls us to Himself and when we turn to Him, HE frees us. I believe His Love and Mercy is powerful enough to cause us to turn to Him. You believe Satan is too powerful and satan keeps us ensnared until God let's us go, first.

 

[JonShaff]

Awwww, don't bow out. I think this can be a fruitful discussion.


I wholeheartedly agree with you on EVERYTHING you have posted here.



And here your theology has went off the rails. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never desire to follow Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never believe in Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man will never trust Him. Fallen, lost, unregenerate man is devoid of faith, and that is the one thing that can please Him.[Hebrews 11:6]

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.[Romans 8:5-9 ESV]

Again, we see the two types of ppl in the world in the above passage: the lost and the saved; the unregenerate and the regenerate. The lost, unregenerate person can not please God[vs 8] Why can't the lost, unregenerate person please God? He is devoid of faith, the one thing that does please God.[Hebrews 11:6] The lost, unregenerate person has their mind set on the things of the flesh, and their heart is hostile towards God, and he is at enmity with Him. He has an ill will towards God.


The sooner you chuck free will out the window, the better it will be for you. The fallen, lost, unregenerate person has a will that is enslaved to sin. Jesus said “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."[Matthew 6:24 ESV] He also said “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."[John 8:34] The lost are slaves to Satan and sin, and their wills are not free. As Jesus also said "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”[John 8:31,32] Only the Christ can set one's will free.


No. First off, it's not Calvin's gospel, but the Christ's gospel. Jesus stated He would give His life for the sheep.[John 10:11] He also was not praying for the world, but those who the Father gave Him. And not only those, but all those who would believe their words.[John 17:9 and John 17:20,21] He also told those self-righteous Pharisees, Saducees, chief priests, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.[John 10:25,26] Not everyone is the Lord's sheep, not everyone does He Shepherd over.


Yes. All are commanded to repent and believe. But just because many are not able to repent, does not negate the command to repent and believe. We are commanded to be as holy as He is, and we are not able to do that. That does not negate the command. We are to observe the Ten Commands, yet we are not able to keep them sinlessly as the Christ did. That doesn't make the command to keep them any less in effect.


Again, the sooner you chuck free will out the window, the better it will be for you. Fallen man's will is not free at all, but enslaved, ensnared, encapsulated by Satan and sin.

You're not understanding my point. I know the condition of the lost man, i know what the Bible clearly teaches. I'm not saying lost people just decide one day, "Hey, this isn't working out, i'm gonna get saved." What i'm saying is, God's love and mercy are so beautiful and powerful that even a Lost person would turn to Him when revealed by God Almighty.

Here is the difference between your understanding and mine--You believe that Satan is so powerful, that he will blind the hearts and minds of the unregenerate UNTIL God makes them regenerate. I believe that God is so powerful that He can attract a lost person to Him (through the Gospel) and when that person turns from sin and satan, God then makes Him regenerate.

 

[TCassidy]

You believe Satan is too powerful and satan keeps us ensnared until God let's us go, first.

It always tickles me when someone who doesn't have a clue tells me what I believe. LOL!

 

[JonShaff]

It always tickles me when someone who doesn't have a clue tells me what I believe. LOL!

So, answer the simple question--do you believe God must regenerate you first before you would want to believe God's Truth? Simple yes or no would suffice.

 

[Revmitchell]

I personally reject that one must be regenerated first before they can believe for four reasons:

1. Regeneration and Salvation are the exact same thing.
2. Scripture does not make such a distinction.
3. Being saved (regenerated) before one believes in order to be saved (regenerated) makes no sense.
4. The gospel is the power to salvation and faith comes not from salvation (regeneration) but from the gospel. The gospel enables one to believe. Salvation (regeneration) is a result of believe.

gospel presented > gospel received > faith enacted > salvation (regeneration) provided.

 

[TCassidy]

Does regeneration precede faith, repentance, and obedience? Yes.

But that is not what you said. You said

You believe Satan is too powerful and satan keeps us ensnared until God let's us go, first.

I don't believe "Satan is too powerful" nor do I believe "Satan keeps us ensnared until God lets us go." It is our own sinful nature that we are in bondage to, just as the bible clearly says. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

God makes the Gospel call so wonderful, so beautiful, that as He opens our eyes to the truth, and gives us a new living heart of faith, we no longer desire to reject Him, but rather we love Him because we now understand His love for us.

The bible is very clear, the unsaved man does not love God, he does not want to come to God. He hates God. That natural man does not receive the things of God, he think the things of God are foolish, he can't understand them, he can't know them because to know them requires spiritual discernment which the unsaved man lacks.

Jesus made it clear when talking to Nicodemus that unless a man is born again he cannot see (perceive, hear, see, know, understand) the Kingdom of God.

I believe what Paul said in Romans 8:2 and what he said in 1 Corinthians 2:14, and what James said in James 4:4, and what Jesus said in John 3:3.

That is what I believe, not the falsehood of thinking Satan is too powerful and such nonsense. Shame on you.

 

[TCassidy]

1. Regeneration and Salvation are the exact same thing.

Nope. Salvation is a present state, a progressing state, and eventually it will be a permanent state.

2. Scripture does not make such a distinction.

Yes, it does. "We who are being saved" says so.

3. Being saved (regenerated) before one believes in order to be saved (regenerated) makes no sense.

Yes, your false characterization makes no sense. But God's way, God gives us a new heart of faith which enables us to believe, repent, and obey, does make sense. It is not of us. It is of God.

John 1:13 "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

It is not about us. It is about God.

Not by works of righteousness, but according to His mercy He saved us.

4. The gospel is the power to salvation and faith comes not from salvation (regeneration) but from the gospel.

Again you conflate two theologically different things.

The gospel enables one to believe. Salvation (regeneration) is a result of believe.

Grace enables one to believe, which is the result of regeneration. "Unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

 

[JonShaff]

That is what I believe, not the falsehood of thinking Satan is too powerful and such nonsense. Shame on you.

First of all, Shame on you for quoting my response to @SovereignGrace and attributing it to yourself.

Secondly, Do you believe Scripture? 2 Corinthians 4:4 - whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Do not play this victim card. So, let's focus on your statements--do you believe *sin* is so powerful that God cannot turn you from it before regenerating you? Do you think sin is more beautiful than God?

 

[Revmitchell]

Nope. Salvation is a present state, a progressing state, and eventually it will be a permanent state.

I agree

Yes, it does. "We who are being saved" says so.

No it doesn't

Yes, your false characterization makes no sense. But God's way, God gives us a new heart of faith which enables us to believe, repent, and obey, does make sense. It is not of us. It is of God.

John 1:13 "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

It is not about us. It is about God.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Again you conflate two theologically different things.

Nope they are the same thing. As I read scripture I see that God's grace (the gospel) doesn't need more grace to be effective.

“…and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” -2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-16‬

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

Believing is a result of the gospel not regeneration. Regeneration and salvation are two sides of the same coin.

Grace enables one to believe, which is the result of regeneration. "Unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.”

The grace is the gospel being sent and preached to the lost. I believe the gospel is sufficient. Apparently you do not.