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Review of Martin Luther and Free Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Oct 2, 2018.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Right before we get saved!
     
    #61 Yeshua1, Oct 4, 2018
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I see that you have neglected your advanced Gnostic teaching that some say we calvinists are all into! that is the gnostic term for really!
     
    #62 Yeshua1, Oct 4, 2018
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  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He and you were wrong. Read the posts. It was not a Greek problem, It is English, just another KJV lax translation problem.
     
    #63 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  4. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    How about when you are born?,
     
    #64 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are born as sinners by nature.
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Oct 4, 2018
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    “το πνευμα οπου θελει πνει και την φωνην αυτου ακουεις αλλ ουκ οιδας ποθεν ερχεται και που υπαγει ουτως εστιν πας ο γεγεννημενος εκ του πνευματος”

    ‭‭
     
    #66 SovereignGrace, Oct 4, 2018
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here are some of what ‘pneuma’ means in the Greek...

    1. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
      1. of the wind, hence the wind itself

      2. breath of nostrils or mouth
     
    #67 SovereignGrace, Oct 4, 2018
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Pneuma is where we get pneumatic from. What does pneumatic mean?
     
    #68 SovereignGrace, Oct 4, 2018
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    yep all that is correct, but it should not have been translated "wind" . ἄνεμος anemos is "wind" If Jesus wanted to say "Wind " he would have said ἄνεμος or anemos. He did not. So it should not have been translated "wind" but left as Spirit.

    Do you understand? It is not a Greek issue. It is a translation issue. οὐ νοεῖτε
     
    #69 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What I wrote was:
    God does not 'force His will' on anyone; He changes our will by giving us a new heart, a new spirit, a new birth so that we delight to do His will (Psalm 40:8). 'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)......' (Ephesians 2:4-5).

    I stand by that; there is no Christian saying, "Oh how I wish I didn't love God. I really want to hate Him but I.....just.....can't ......do.....it!" No, no! God has taken away our hard heart and replaced it with a heart that loves Him and desires to do His will (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and He has written His moral law, 'not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh, that is, the heart' (2 Corinthians 3:3; c.f. Jeremiah 31:34).
     
    #70 Martin Marprelate, Oct 4, 2018
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Nope. John 3:8 The wind blows where it wants to. "Wind" is the subject of the sentence.

    Sure is.

    Nope. πνεθμα is clearly "wind."

    Wind.

    Confident in the word of God.

    John 3:8 (RV 1881) The wind bloweth where it listeth.

    John 3:8 (TLV 2013) The wind blows where it wishes.

    John 3:8 (WEB 2000) The wind blows where it wants to.

    John 3:8 (Webster 1833) The wind bloweth where it will.

    John 3:8 (ASV 1901) The wind bloweth where it will.

    John 3:8 (Bishops' Bible 1568) The wynde bloweth where it listeth.

    John 3:8 (EMTV 2009) The wind blows where it wills.

    John 3:8 (ESV 2001) The wind blows where it wishes.

    John 3:8 (Geneva 1560) The winde bloweth where it listeth.

    Hmmmm. Nope. Not a KJV issue. Just about all the English versions correctly translates it as "wind."


    Nope. Wrong again. οὐ νοεῖτε means a strong, violent, storm wind. Not the gentle breath/breeze of πευμα.
     
    #71 TCassidy, Oct 4, 2018
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  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Oh boy! :Rolleyes 'For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.....'
    Does this sound as if Paul 'had a heart that really wanted to serve God?
    '.......But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.......'(Titus 3:3-7).
     
    #72 Martin Marprelate, Oct 4, 2018
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  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Who has seen the wind?
    Neither I nor you.
    But when the leaves hang trembling,
    The wind is passing through.

    Who has seen the wind?
    Neither you nor I.
    But when the trees bow down their heads,
    The wind is passing by.     [Christina Rosetti]
     
    #73 Martin Marprelate, Oct 4, 2018
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  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Here is the YLT for reference.

    Jhn 3:8
    the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

    Oh my goodness, Show me another verse where pnuema is translated wind? I can't search Greek. so what verse?

    It is a translation issue, "wind is not intended because speaking of the Spirit does follow the conversation to Nicodemus v3:5 ,6 pnuema is Spirit

    Spirit where he. willeth , blow.(etc)....... so it is with those born of the Spirit. The conversation is being born again. Why should an example of wind be inserted. The spirit is the subject/

    ἄνεμος is not only strong wind but also the normal trade winds.
     
    #74 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  15. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    It is an unseen force , as the Holy Spirit works too
     
    #75 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Act 28:13
    thence having gone round, we came to Rhegium, and after one day, a south wind having sprung up, the second day we came to Puteoli;
    νότος notos south wind

    Eph 4:14
    that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,
    not really a wind but still ἄνεμος anemos
     
    #76 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Tcassidy, is correct it is not a KJV only translation but relates much earlier translation or commentary, but not all. A problem with voice and feminine noun to Spirit, I understand

    Here is the verse in Latin Vulgate
    8 Spiritus ubi vult spirat et vocem eius audis sed non scis unde veniat et quo vadat sic est omnis qui natus est ex Spiritu

    obviously not "wind" but "Spirit"
     
    #77 loDebar, Oct 4, 2018
  18. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Oh boy? OK Martin Oh boy! :rolleyes: You didn't happen to read as well Paul's statements in Rom 10:1-2 which states,

    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God Rom 10: 1-2

    ZEAL==> ζῆλος, ου, ὁ ---zelos----eagerness, zeal, enthusiasm

    So...eagerness of God....zeal of God....enthusiasm of God.
     
    #78 Rockson, Oct 4, 2018
  19. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    LOL! Well I think if I filled up an auditorium of 1,000 people not religious and the question was asked if one changed the will of another without their permission to a position they were beforehand against would that have been they forced their will upon the other? Yes or no? I know who would win the vote of such a thing. Absolutely staggers the mind that religious people can claim it wouldn't be forced with a straight face.

    Sorry that's not a proof text for your position. It's merely showing even when we were in the state of being separated from God with no way to keep the law or the higher law of love God could take our choice to allow him to come in with the Spirit of salvation and make us a new creation.

    Well then you're standing by your position that God changes one by irresistible grace and you admit they didn't WANT to serve God. But he changes that against their will and you say that's not forced. And then you say you don't know any Christians saying they don't love God. Well how could they NOT SAY they don't love God when they were forced or made to do so against their will? Did they have a decision to say ya or nay? You say no. I think you should admit it...there is no real, true, genuine love in the Calvinistic doctrine of irresistible grace.
     
    #79 Rockson, Oct 4, 2018
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That's right! :) Our Lord is making a comparison; the work of the Spirit is like the wind.
     
    #80 Martin Marprelate, Oct 5, 2018
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