Why? He is not under any obligation to actually save any!
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Review of Martin Luther and Free Will
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I'm using calvinism's logic to prove its conclusions if it would remain consistent.
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We hold that His grace cannot be resisted by His elect, always is by lost sinners!
Nope. Try again.
If God does not take pleasure in the death of the Wicked, If hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels, If Salvation Brings the Most Glory to Christ, and if Regeneration/Salvation Is irresistible, Then why doesn't everyone get Saved?
You don't understand the doctrine of 'Total Depravity.' This does not state that all men are as wicked as they can possibly be, but that 'since the Fall, man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles and that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation. His corruption is extensive but not necessarily intensive' (L. Boettner). 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8).
Once again, you don't understand what Calvinists believe. The inability of man to come to God is not physical, but moral and spiritual. "And this is the condemnation; that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). Nor do men not come because God keeps them away. There is no one saying, "Oh! How I wish I could come to God, but.....somehow......I.....Just....can't.....do.....it!" No! they do not come because they do not want to serve a holy God, so they either reject the whole idea of God or create for themselves their own god who will approve whatever they do. "For everyone who [genuinely] asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened" (Matthew 7:8). Yet, "You are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40).
Here's something I've explained several times on this board, so I apologize to those who've seen it before.
John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me........" Here is particular redemption writ large. The Father has given to the Son a people to redeem, which He has done at measureless cost, and they will come, every last one of them (John 6:39; 17:2, 6).
"........And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." No one who comes to Christ in repentance and faith will ever be refused. No one will ever come and be told, "I'm sorry, but you can't come in; you're not one of the elect," or, "Sorry, but Christ's blood isn't quite enough to save you." No, whoever wills may enter the kingdom of God, but when they have entered, they will know that it was because God set His love upon them in eternity and drew them to Himself in time (Jeremiah 31:3).
The same teaching is given in John 6:39-40 and in Matthew 11:25-28. There is a 'window of opportunity' for anyone to come to Christ, but unless God gives them new birth and draws the irresistibly to Himself, they will not take it (John 3:3-6).
God did not choose to save all sinners!
That's fine, but calvinisms logic (if it were to stay consistent) should conclude God does.
Why?
Err, actually,yes. 'Then the master said to the servant, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in that my house may be filled"' (Luke 14:23).
If God effects salvation with zero response from man, and salvation brings the most glory to Christ, and God determines everything to Himself the Most glory, and if Spiritual Death is something God does not desire for an individual, then in conclusion, because He controls the destiny of all, He would save everyone to get the most glory.
The question is not why doesn't everyone get saved, the question is why did anyone get saved?... Does the Sovereign Almighty God owe his fallen creatures anything, if he does please show me the scripture that says so?... Brother Glen
No, we cannot necessarily say that because we know it was His plan to make us into the image of Christ before the world was created.The question is not why doesn't everyone get saved, the question is why did anyone get saved?... Does the Sovereign Almighty God owe his fallen creatures anything, if he does please show me the scripture that says so?... Brother Glen
Rockson
Active Member
My Words
Jesus already talked about the great banquette where many were invited but refused to come. Did he tell his angels to go out there and just drag them in? Lk14:15-24
Well I don't think you'd want to go there in claiming that's irresistible grace. First he invited and had intent that that all certain ones would attend. Intent means will. Intent means desire. He was upset they didn't come. Secondly he told the servants to go out rather and invite any and all others to take their place. If you're going to say this is irresistible grace because he said compel them to come in such would make you a universalist FOR HE intended the first to come and then the second. He invited the first to come to the party which means he wanted them. For the very reason they didn't or refused to show up set's aside irresistible grace.
Jesus already talked about the great banquette where many were invited but refused to come. Did he tell his angels to go out there and just drag them in? Lk14:15-24
Well I don't think you'd want to go there in claiming that's irresistible grace. First he invited and had intent that that all certain ones would attend. Intent means will. Intent means desire. He was upset they didn't come. Secondly he told the servants to go out rather and invite any and all others to take their place. If you're going to say this is irresistible grace because he said compel them to come in such would make you a universalist FOR HE intended the first to come and then the second. He invited the first to come to the party which means he wanted them. For the very reason they didn't or refused to show up set's aside irresistible grace.
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Rockson
Active Member
The question is not why doesn't everyone get saved, the question is why did anyone get saved?... Does the Sovereign Almighty God owe his fallen creatures anything, if he does please show me the scripture that says so?... Brother Glen
No, no, no! That's a cop out. The question still is good and valid. If God is not pleased with the death of the wicked and he uses irresistible grace like Calvinists say why aren't all people saved? You dear people are always saying God gets whatever he wants and what he doesn't want he won't experience therefore no sweeping a good point under the rug.
No, no, no! That's a cop out. The question still is good and valid. If God is not pleased with the death of the wicked and he uses irresistible grace like Calvinists say why aren't all people saved? You dear people are always saying God gets whatever he wants and what he doesn't want he won't experience therefore no sweeping a good point under the rug.
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Brother Glen
This isn't even talking about individual salvation (Concerning our convo). This passage is addressing the Person who thinks they should be saved because they were BORN a PHYSICAL JEW.Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Brother Glen
Rockson said:
Martin Marprelate said:
It's not usually advisable to press parables too far, but in this case, it seems to work quite well. God sends His evangelists out to call all men to come. But the fact is, as I explained in post #106, that people do not come to Christ of their own volition. 'He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him' (John 1:11). But Christ has a people, given to Him by God, whom He has redeemed through His blood, and they will come-- God will 'compel them to come in.' And so the Scripture is fulfilled that says, 'many are called, but few are chosen.' 'Few,' however, is a relative term in the light of Revelation 7:9.Rockson said:
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Unless you are going to reject both the OMNIPOTENCE and SOVEREIGNTY of God, then the fact that anyone is not saved must mean that God has allowed them to perish even though God could have saved them. Anything that tries to explain a God who can do anything except make his will reality is ultimately just smoke and mirrors.
I have no idea WHY God does what he does and does not do what he chooses not to do, but INABILITY is an unacceptable answer since it transforms the “God” into a “god”.
If God wanted people saved in the same way that God wanted “let there be light” then it “would be so” and everyone would be saved. That everyone is not saved indicates that God wants some saved and some not saved.
I do not reject these things. I believe God is Sovereign and Omnipotent.
I'm not sure if I'm tracking you here.
This is a false dichotomy--Either He is fully able to or He's powerless. There is a third option--He gives man the ability to respond to the Gospel.
Once again, you present a false dichotomy. There are other options. One being He has given us the ability to believe Him or reject Him. This is a reality all throughout the OT and NT. John's prologue details that--A reception of Christ (Samaritan woman, Mary, Martha, etc.) or a rejection of Christ (Religious leaders, Pilate, etc.).
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