Review of Martin Luther and Free Will

[Yeshua1]

In defending free will, I am defending God and His nature against fatalistic determinism which denigrates God's character.

Calvinists do not hold to that form of dterminism, only Muslims do!

 

[Yeshua1]

I've been shown nothing of the kind. Man never loses the right to choose. This is taught all through the Bible. Your Calvinistic determinism is a johnny-come-lately theology.

Man is spiritual dead, correct?

 

[TCassidy]

I've been shown nothing of the kind.

You have been shown over and over and over again.

Man never loses the right to choose.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the false doctrine of "free will." The will of the lost man is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death according to Romans 8:2, (In bondage means "not free.")

This is taught all through the Bible.

False doctrine is not taught anywhere in the bible.

Your Calvinistic determinism is a johnny-come-lately theology.

Your false doctrine has been around since Satan said, "Has God really said . . . ?" (Genesis 3:1.)

 

[Rebel1]

Man is spiritual dead, correct?

My position on original sin is close to what the Eastern Orthodox and early Anabaptists taught, and John Smyth.

 

[Yeshua1]

My position on original sin is close to what the Eastern Orthodox and early Anabaptists taught, and John Smyth.

But not the scriptures!

 

[TCassidy]

My position on original sin is close to what the Eastern Orthodox and early Anabaptists taught, and John Smyth.

You would be better off agreeing with what the bible says rather than what some Pelagians believe, not to mention a Se-baptist.

 

[Rebel1]

But not the scriptures!

Yes, indeed the scriptures, and the earliest churches.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, indeed the scriptures, and the earliest churches.

Not in the scriptures....

 

[TCassidy]

God has always given his creatures, including man, the right to choose,

Which has nothing to do with "free will."

from the very beginning, so this is not false doctrine.

"Free will" denies Romans 8:2.

Your Calvinistic determinism

I am neither a calvinist nor a determinist.

equating your version of "god" with Allah.

Please do not lie about what I believe.

It is taught nowhere in scripture. It was a 16th century invention of a murderer.

Romans 8:2 makes it clear. Only Christ frees the will of the sinner from the law of sin and death. To deny that is to deny the bible.

 

[Rebel1]

You would be better off agreeing with what the bible says rather than what some Pelagians believe, not to mention a Se-baptist.

John Smyth was the first Baptist, along with Thomas Helwys. And you denigrate him.

I agree with the Bible; that's why I don't agree with you.

I'm not Pelagian, but better Pelagius than Augustine who corrupted almost all of Western, Latin Christianity.

 

[Rebel1]

I did not intend to get into an argument with Calvinists. Past experience has shown me that this is fruitless.

 

[Rebel1]

Which has nothing to do with "free will."

"Free will" denies Romans 8:2.

I am neither a calvinist nor a determinist.

Please do not lie about what I believe.

Romans 8:2 makes it clear. Only Christ frees the will of the sinner from the law of sin and death. To deny that is to deny the bible.

If you are not a Calvinist, then I take back that part of what I said. But now you please don't lie about my being a Pelagian. I am not.

 

[TCassidy]

John Smyth was the first Baptist,

No, he wasn't. He was never baptized, and was, until the time of his death, a Mennonite.

I agree with the Bible;

Then you deny the will of the lost man is free but bound by the law of sin and death. Good. We are making progress. Now you don't believe in "free will" but in the bible teaching of the bondage of the will.

But now you please don't lie about my being a Pelagian.

I didn't say you were a Pelagian. I said you agreed with some Pelagians. Do you deny the Eastern Orthodox Church is Pelagian? Or that the Anabaptists of Holland were Pelagian?

And the first Baptists were William Kiffin and John Spilsbury. Read up on them.

 

[Rebel1]

No, he wasn't. He was never baptized, and was, until the time of his death, a Mennonite.

Then you deny the will of the lost man is free but bound by the law of sin and death. Good. We are making progress. Now you don't believe in "free will" but in the bible teaching of the bondage of the will.

I didn't say you were a Pelagian. I said you agreed with some Pelagians. Do you deny the Eastern Orthodox Church is Pelagian? Or that the Anabaptists of Holland were Pelagian?

And the first Baptists were William Kiffin and John Spilsbury. Read up on them.

You don't have to attempt to teach me about Baptist history. The first English Baptists were John Smyth and Thomas Helwys. Smyth was a Baptist before he joined the Mennonites, and he was baptized. Maybe you should read up on them.

I do not believe the Lutheran teaching of the bondage of the will. Strange that you would, claiming to be a Baptist.

Neither the EOC nor the Anabaptists are Pelagian. I suggest you familiarize yourself further with their teachings.

BTW, Kiffin was born the year Helwys died, so Kiffin was definitely not the first Baptist. You'd better go back and read some Baptist history. Helwys was born about 1575.

 

[atpollard]

God has always given his creatures, including man, the right to choose, from the very beginning, so this is not false doctrine. Your Calvinistic determinism is blasphemous, equating your version of "god" with Allah. It is taught nowhere in scripture. It was a 16th century invention of a murderer.

Like Jonah was free to choose not to go to Nineveh and a God of Love would never even THINK of forcing Jonah to do something that Jonah didn’t want to do. Right?

 

[Yeshua1]

John Smyth was the first Baptist, along with Thomas Helwys. And you denigrate him.

I agree with the Bible; that's why I don't agree with you.

I'm not Pelagian, but better Pelagius than Augustine who corrupted almost all of Western, Latin Christianity.

How can getting to the trtuh of how God really saves be bad thing?

 

[TCassidy]

The first English Baptists were John Smyth and Thomas Helwys.

John Smyth was, as I said in my earlier post, not a baptist. He was, at best, a se-baptist who tried to become a Mennonite but died before he could be baptized a Mennonite.

Smyth was a Baptist before he joined the Mennonites, and he was baptized.

Nope. First of all he was excommunicated from the "Baptist" church by, yep, your "hero" Thomas Helwys. He was never baptized. If you are referring to the article by Dr. John Clifford in the "General Baptist Magazine," that claims John Morton baptized John Smyth, it has been exposed to have been a forgery. (See "Baptised Believers," R. R. Kershaw, Nottingham University, 1995.)

Also, I am sure an expert on church history like you would know that before he died Smyth denied original sin and taught that Christians could believe whatever they wanted to believe regardless of what the bible taught.

Maybe you should read up on them.

Well, I taught Ecclesiastical History for 25 years at the Seminary, so I might have read just a bit on the subject.

I do not believe the Lutheran teaching of the bondage of the will.

So you do not believe in Romans 8:2?

Strange that you would, claiming to be a Baptist.

I don't think it is strange for a baptist to believe the bible.

Neither the EOC nor the Anabaptists are Pelagian.

Of course they are. My family history is firmly rooted in Anabaptism.

I suggest you familiarize yourself further with their teachings.

Grew up with them.

BTW, Kiffin was born the year Helwys died, so Kiffin was definitely not the first Baptist.

He was the first real baptist. Neither Smyth nor Helwys are what we call "baptist" today.

You'd better go back and read some Baptist history.

Taught it in the seminary for 25 years. And you?

Helwys was born about 1575.

So? Some historians believe that there may have been some early Particular Baptist ministries during the reign of Edward VI (1547-1553) but they were not distinct from other dissenting groups.

It is generally agreed that Particular Baptists began to separate from other dissident/independent congregations in 1633 and began to form their own churches. But they existed long before that time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In defending free will, I am defending God and His nature against fatalistic determinism which denigrates God's character.

Let me rephrase this for you, what you really are saying..

Unless God agrees with me on EVERYTHING, I will never bow my knee to Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let me rephrase this for you, what you really are saying..

Unless God agrees with me on EVERYTHING, I will never bow my knee to Him.

What you're doing is taking God, putting Him on the potter's wheel and molding Him into what you what Him to be.

 

[JonShaff]

Let me rephrase this for you, what you really are saying..

Unless God agrees with me on EVERYTHING, I will never bow my knee to Him.

That's not what I got out of his post.