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Review of Martin Luther and Free Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Oct 2, 2018.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists do not hold to that form of dterminism, only Muslims do!
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Man is spiritual dead, correct?
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You have been shown over and over and over again.

    Which has absolutely nothing to do with the false doctrine of "free will." The will of the lost man is not free. It is in bondage to the law of sin and death according to Romans 8:2, (In bondage means "not free.")

    False doctrine is not taught anywhere in the bible.

    Your false doctrine has been around since Satan said, "Has God really said . . . ?" (Genesis 3:1.)
     
  4. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    My position on original sin is close to what the Eastern Orthodox and early Anabaptists taught, and John Smyth.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    But not the scriptures!
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You would be better off agreeing with what the bible says rather than what some Pelagians believe, not to mention a Se-baptist.
     
  7. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    Yes, indeed the scriptures, and the earliest churches.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not in the scriptures....
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Which has nothing to do with "free will."

    "Free will" denies Romans 8:2.

    I am neither a calvinist nor a determinist.

    Please do not lie about what I believe.

    Romans 8:2 makes it clear. Only Christ frees the will of the sinner from the law of sin and death. To deny that is to deny the bible.
     
  10. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    John Smyth was the first Baptist, along with Thomas Helwys. And you denigrate him.

    I agree with the Bible; that's why I don't agree with you.

    I'm not Pelagian, but better Pelagius than Augustine who corrupted almost all of Western, Latin Christianity.
     
  11. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    I did not intend to get into an argument with Calvinists. Past experience has shown me that this is fruitless.
     
  12. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    If you are not a Calvinist, then I take back that part of what I said. But now you please don't lie about my being a Pelagian. I am not.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, he wasn't. He was never baptized, and was, until the time of his death, a Mennonite.

    Then you deny the will of the lost man is free but bound by the law of sin and death. Good. We are making progress. Now you don't believe in "free will" but in the bible teaching of the bondage of the will.

    I didn't say you were a Pelagian. I said you agreed with some Pelagians. Do you deny the Eastern Orthodox Church is Pelagian? Or that the Anabaptists of Holland were Pelagian?

    And the first Baptists were William Kiffin and John Spilsbury. Read up on them.
     
  14. Rebel1

    Rebel1 Active Member

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    You don't have to attempt to teach me about Baptist history. The first English Baptists were John Smyth and Thomas Helwys. Smyth was a Baptist before he joined the Mennonites, and he was baptized. Maybe you should read up on them.

    I do not believe the Lutheran teaching of the bondage of the will. Strange that you would, claiming to be a Baptist.

    Neither the EOC nor the Anabaptists are Pelagian. I suggest you familiarize yourself further with their teachings.

    BTW, Kiffin was born the year Helwys died, so Kiffin was definitely not the first Baptist. You'd better go back and read some Baptist history. Helwys was born about 1575.
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Like Jonah was free to choose not to go to Nineveh and a God of Love would never even THINK of forcing Jonah to do something that Jonah didn’t want to do. Right?
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How can getting to the trtuh of how God really saves be bad thing?
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    John Smyth was, as I said in my earlier post, not a baptist. He was, at best, a se-baptist who tried to become a Mennonite but died before he could be baptized a Mennonite.

    Nope. First of all he was excommunicated from the "Baptist" church by, yep, your "hero" Thomas Helwys. He was never baptized. If you are referring to the article by Dr. John Clifford in the "General Baptist Magazine," that claims John Morton baptized John Smyth, it has been exposed to have been a forgery. (See "Baptised Believers," R. R. Kershaw, Nottingham University, 1995.)

    Also, I am sure an expert on church history like you would know that before he died Smyth denied original sin and taught that Christians could believe whatever they wanted to believe regardless of what the bible taught.

    Well, I taught Ecclesiastical History for 25 years at the Seminary, so I might have read just a bit on the subject.

    So you do not believe in Romans 8:2?

    I don't think it is strange for a baptist to believe the bible.

    Of course they are. My family history is firmly rooted in Anabaptism.

    Grew up with them.

    He was the first real baptist. Neither Smyth nor Helwys are what we call "baptist" today.

    Taught it in the seminary for 25 years. And you?

    So? Some historians believe that there may have been some early Particular Baptist ministries during the reign of Edward VI (1547-1553) but they were not distinct from other dissenting groups.

    It is generally agreed that Particular Baptists began to separate from other dissident/independent congregations in 1633 and began to form their own churches. But they existed long before that time.
     
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  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Let me rephrase this for you, what you really are saying..

    Unless God agrees with me on EVERYTHING, I will never bow my knee to Him.
     
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    What you're doing is taking God, putting Him on the potter's wheel and molding Him into what you what Him to be.
     
  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    That's not what I got out of his post.
     
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