How Much Authority Does A Church Have?

[HopefulNChrist]

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

That also applies to any "Church". We are not to think of any Church above that which is written.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which God hates, is having an authority outside the local assembly other than Jesus Christ the head of the Church.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

For clarity sake, the deeds of the Niclolaitanes is sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

So to be clear, Nicolaitanes when defined, "From Nakao, to conquer and Laos, the people or laity." So that applies to the doctrines of the Nicolaitanes which establishes an earthly authority outside of the assembly.

There are contentions that there was no ancient authority over the sect of the Nicolaitanes, but being from the Book of Revelation, it can be applied to the Council at Nicea in developing ecumenical creeds to be handed down to all local assemblies to accept. And from there, eventually, the Presbytery which the Catholics had applied first before the Protestants applied it, and even the Baptists of today..

Indeed, my former church was of the Presbytery that ruled over a string of certain Presbyterian churches that imposed local assemblies to follow in accepting social values as a ministering outreach into the community. That means making compromises with sexual immorality with the sinful community.

So from having an hierarchy above local assemblies, sexual immorality can be imposed on the churches to accept. One can see this happening today for what was prophesied in Revelation.

And although not all denomination has a "Presbytery" that winded up imposing sexual immorality, ( I point out that my former church did, after a while though, finally switched Presbytery to a more Bible base one ) however the problem remains with having an outside authority over the local assembly, because God hates that too How long will it be before changes are made in the upper hierarchy that is not Bible base? Indeed, having that hierarchy is NOT Bible base when Jesus Christ is the Head of ever believer and every church.

Ephesians 1:22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Colossians 1:18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Scripture has sole authority because the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the Head of the Church; not the Church. It is by the word is how Jesus Christ will sanctify and cleanse; not by extrabiblical traditions created by the authority of a "Church".

That means infant baptism is out because the Church has no authority to go above what is written.

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

The Church certainly has puffed themselves up against one another in citing having authority to go beyond what is written to create tradition as if the authority of the scripture does not limit them from doing so. It should also be no wonder why God hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes for having an outside authority of the local assembly other than the Head Whom is Jesus Christ.

The ecumenical creeds is an agreement among all the churches in Christianity and scripture also reproves it.

2 Corinthians 6:.14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

No one needs the creeds when we have Christ as our Head in using scripture to do the reproving.

 

[Adonia]

Scripture has sole authority because the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the Head of the Church; not the Church. It is by the word is how Jesus Christ will sanctify and cleanse; not by extrabiblical traditions created by the authority of a "Church".

Scripture is only authoritative, because Jesus gave authority first to the Apostles who then gave this authority that was given to them to their successors. Jesus said: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:18-19).

And this means infant baptism is just fine because the Bishop's who lead the Church have the power to proclaim such a doctrine. They were after all lead by the Holy Spirit who remained as the guiding force.

So there we have it, proof positive that authority resides in the men Jesus chose, not a book. I hope that this clears up your misconception.

 

[Adonia]

No one needs the creeds when we have Christ as our Head in using scripture to do the reproving.

So now you oppose the Christian creeds where we proclaim our Christian faith? It just never ends with you, does it?

 

[Adonia]

The ecumenical creeds is an agreement among all the churches in Christianity and scripture also reproves it.

The Scriptures do no such thing, your interpretation of them however continues to be very faulty.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Scripture is only authoritative, because Jesus gave authority first to the Apostles who then gave this authority that was given to them to their successors. Jesus said: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (Matthew 16:18-19).

Do pay attention to His words that you are quoting. He did not say Peter will build my church. He said I will build my church.

And He did not say that He gave the keys of hell to Peter, but the keys to the kingdom and not specifically to Peter alone since the other disciples were there with Peter when Jesus has said this. Jesus mention the same keys for believers in church to use in prayer.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is the only one holding the keys to the gates of hell for why the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church of whom He is the Head of... not Peter.

Revelation 1: 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Peter was alive when Paul was, and we see no referring to Peter being the head of the church or as the authority of the church.

Ephesians 1:22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Colossians 1:18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Ephesians 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Paul only referred to the authority of Jesus Christ and His words as the authority of the church. Peter backed Paul's epistles as equal to scripture, because it is scripture.

2 Peter 3:5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

And this means infant baptism is just fine because the Bishop's who lead the Church have the power to proclaim such a doctrine.

No. He does not.

You really think there were no Christian families with infants being born to them in churches during the times the disciples were living when writing the N.T. ?

Infant baptism is vanity because the infant still has to hear the gospel to believe in Him to be saved. Infant baptism has nothing to do with God's ministering to the churches. It is empty and moot in the eyes of God.

So there we have it, proof positive that authority resides in the men Jesus chose, not a book. I hope that this clears up your misconception.

Then you would be open to every tradition and doctrine created by the "Church" which also includes executing heretics, right?

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

God has provided everything we need to know by the accepted scripture. Ordinances have been given for churches to follow in the epistles. There is nothing lacking in the accepted scripture for the "Church" to create extrabiblical traditions.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

So now you oppose the Christian creeds where we proclaim our Christian faith? It just never ends with you, does it?

Tell me when was the last time you used a creed to correct someone? I would say.. never.

We correct by the scripture. No one has used a creed to defend the faith in the ministry. Just reciting it in the assembly does nothing. After a time of habitually citing it, believers tend to forget what they are saying when it is said out of habit anyway.

It is an ecumenical creed which Jesus describes ecumenicalism as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles below.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

By introducing the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, the churches that follow are no longer honoring the Father in worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

That is why even Baptists are feeling the presence of what they believe is the Holy Spirit in the worship place when scripture has identified said spirit as being the spirit of the antichrist since the Holy Spirit is in us always. 1 John 4:1-4

That is why when confusion comes by Baptists seeking what they believe is the Holy Spirit visiting the worship place, Baptists that agree that slain in the spirit and holy laughter is not of God, will have a hard time convincing Baptists falling for it when the focus was on the Holy Spirit in the worship place. It does not matter whatever wonderful works they proclaim, the iniquity is broadening the way in how to come to God the Father by... by making the Holy Spirit the other "go to" Person in worship.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

See what happens when you allow any one outside the authority of scripture to create extrabiblical traditions?

That is why in these latter days.. only a few will find Him as being the only way to God the Father by as Matthew 7:13-14 earlier stated and why the solution is to narrow the way back to the Son in worship to avoid being left behind.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

 

[Adonia]

That is why even Baptists are feeling the presence of what they believe is the Holy Spirit in the worship place when scripture has identified said spirit as being the spirit of the antichrist since the Holy Spirit is in us always. 1 John 4:1-4

What? You are really off the wall when it comes to discerning what the Scriptures are saying. If someone feels the presence of the Holy Spirit during worship then it is no one's place to question that. You do not know what is the feeling of the individual worshipper and to claim that the evil one is somehow involved is ridiculous.

By introducing the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, the churches that follow are no longer honoring the Father in worship.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. When you worship one, you are in essence worshipping the other. The Holy Spirit is so important, is to be so respected, that the blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one unforgivable sin, or do you have a different belief on that biblical truth as well?

Your info says "non-Baptist" Christian, so to what sect do you belong?

 

[Adonia]

Tell me when was the last time you used a creed to correct someone? I would say.. never.

I say the creed to affirm and proclaim my faith and there is not one un-biblical word or meaning in the Apostle's or Nicene creeds

 

[HopefulNChrist]

What? You are really off the wall when it comes to discerning what the Scriptures are saying. If someone feels the presence of the Holy Spirit during worship then it is no one's place to question that. You do not know what is the feeling of the individual worshipper and to claim that the evil one is somehow involved is ridiculous.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.....4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. When you worship one, you are in essence worshipping the other. The Holy Spirit is so important, is to be so respected, that the blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the one unforgivable sin, or do you have a different belief on that biblical truth as well?

When Jesus had told us He is the only way to come to God the Father by, then that is why one should not go beyond what scripture says.

John 14: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Your info says "non-Baptist" Christian, so to what sect do you belong?

None. By His grace and by His help, I represent Jesus Christ. That is Who the disciples are suppose to represent; not a Church.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

I say the creed to affirm and proclaim my faith and there is not one un-biblical word or meaning in the Apostle's or Nicene creeds

The "modified" Nicene creed gives the title and credit to the Holy Spirit as the Giver of Life.

But scripture in all Bibles testifies to Jesus being the bread of life that gives life to the world in John 6:33 below.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

But some modern Bibles err by capitalizing spirit in 2 Corinthian 3:6 and John 6:63 from which comes the error of the Nicene creed in 2 Corinthians 3:6.

So which scripture is correct?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

So the Nicene creed is in error for giving the glory of that title of the Giver of Life to the Holy Spirit.

What does the scripture says about the Holy Spirit in taking any glory or credit?

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So believers led by the Holy Spirit and scripture would be giving the credit & glory to Jesus as the Giver of life.

That is one error in that modified Nicene creed. There is another, which is the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son as not found anywhere in the Bible but John 5:22-23 & Philippians 2:5-13 does reprove it, but one error in that Nicene creed should be enough for you to recognize and to drop it, providing that God is causing the increase for you to receive that truth.

By the creeds, a little leaven can leaven a whole lump.

 

[Adonia]

So believers led by the Holy Spirit and scripture would be giving the credit & glory to Jesus as the Giver of life.

That is one error in that modified Nicene creed. There is another, which is the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son as not found anywhere in the Bible but John 5:22-23 & Philippians 2:5-13 does reprove it, but one error in that Nicene creed should be enough for you to recognize and to drop it, providing that God is causing the increase for you to receive that truth.

Not so. The following by the Catholic theologian Kenneth Baker S.J. is clear explanation of what this means.

Let us take the phrase "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life". Father Baker wrote:

"The Spirit is called “holy” because he proceeds from the Father and is a source of sanctification in the faithful. The Holy Spirit is also said to be “the Lord”. We have already seen that Jesus Christ is called the “one Lord” in the second part of the Creed. Why then use the same title with regard to the Holy Spirit? As was explained in that article, the title “Lord” is an affirmation of divinity, since its application derives from the use of “Yahweh” in the old Testament. Thus, when the Church applies the title “Lord” to the Holy Spirit, she is saying that the Holy Spirit is truly God, co-equal with the Father and the Son".

Let us then go on to the words "the giver of life". Again, Father Baker: "For the ancients, breath in the body (which is what “spirit” literally means) was the sign of life. Then it came to mean the source or principle of life. God’s Spirit was involved in the production of all life in the world as we read in Genesis (1:2): “the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.” It is the Spirit that gives life, both physical and spiritual. In order to have eternal life a man must be born “of water and the Spirit” (Jn 3:5). According to St. Paul, “the Spirit brings life” (2 Cor 3:6). Since it is the Holy Spirit who pours out charity in the hearts of the faithful (Gal 5:5), he is the source of all true life in God. So in the Creed we proclaim our belief that the Holy Spirit is “the giver of life”.

Your exegesis on the Nicene creed is simply wrong and way off base and it goes against the accumulated knowledge of God's Holy Church. It is clear that you are way out of your league in your attempt to explain these things. So, as per what I have shared, the Nicene creed remains completely biblical and a profitable thing for all Christians to profess.

See, we need to back to "authority", and this is another case where the Church is exercising it's authority to teach the faithful correctly. It (the Church) has it right, you have it wrong.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Not so. The following by the Catholic theologian Kenneth Baker S.J. is clear explanation of what this means.

Let us take the phrase "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life". Father Baker wrote:

"The Spirit is called “holy” because he proceeds from the Father and is a source of sanctification in the faithful. The Holy Spirit is also said to be “the Lord”. We have already seen that Jesus Christ is called the “one Lord” in the second part of the Creed. Why then use the same title with regard to the Holy Spirit? As was explained in that article, the title “Lord” is an affirmation of divinity, since its application derives from the use of “Yahweh” in the old Testament. Thus, when the Church applies the title “Lord” to the Holy Spirit, she is saying that the Holy Spirit is truly God, co-equal with the Father and the Son".

Co-equal is misleading since it is the Father's will to be done and the Holy Spirit has no authority to speak other than what He ears ( John 16:13 ), but the Holy Spirit is God as being One of the Three Witnesses within the One God ( 1 John 5:6-9 KJV ).

Because of other spirits in the world and sinners that commune with those spirits in many different ways is why ALL invitations in coming to God the father for anything is by the only way of the Son; in prayer, fellowship, and worship so that the assembly knows that the sinners has repented of their evil deeds when coming into worship. That is why there is no worship of the Holy Spirit.

Right now, some believers that are ignoring His words are worshipping what they assume to be the "Holy Spirit "that comes into the worship place because the focus is on the Holy Spirit in asking Him to come and fall on them for why many believers are falling backwards into confusion. Some call it "being drunk in the holy Spirit" as they also label it as receiving "joy" as if the fruit of the Spirit "Joy" would mimic the work of the flesh of drunkenness over-riding the fruit of temperance which is self control. The irony is that the American Indians dance and chant for the Great Spirit to come and the reason they took to alcohol is because it reminded them of communing with the Great Spirit; hence that same spirit that brings drunkenness or loss of self control is NOT the Holy Spirit they have been calling on to come and fall on them.

Why would God allow that to happen? Because they are in iniquity for ignoring His words on how to specifically come to God the father in worship, prayer, and fellowship and that is by the only way of the Son.

Let us then go on to the words "the giver of life". Again, Father Baker: "For the ancients, breath in the body (which is what “spirit” literally means) was the sign of life. Then it came to mean the source or principle of life. God’s Spirit was involved in the production of all life in the world as we read in Genesis (1:2): “the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.” It is the Spirit that gives life, both physical and spiritual. In order to have eternal life a man must be born “of water and the Spirit” (Jn 3:5). According to St. Paul, “the Spirit brings life” (2 Cor 3:6). Since it is the Holy Spirit who pours out charity in the hearts of the faithful (Gal 5:5), he is the source of all true life in God. So in the Creed we proclaim our belief that the Holy Spirit is “the giver of life”.

Your exegesis on the Nicene creed is simply wrong and way off base and it goes against the accumulated knowledge of God's Holy Church. It is clear that you are way out of your league in your attempt to explain these things. So, as per what I have shared, the Nicene creed remains completely biblical and a profitable thing for all Christians to profess.

See, we need to back to "authority", and this is another case where the Church is exercising it's authority to teach the faithful correctly. It (the Church) has it right, you have it wrong.

How much authority were Pentecostals and Charismatics were displaying when they say that all Catholics are going to hell? When I argued the point to a pastor whom was a fellow co worker at one time, I said there is such a thing as a Catholic Charismatic Church for which he replied that maybe some of them are saved just because they spoke in tongues too.

I said that they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, the scripture declares them to be saved. So that foundation is laid by Jesus Christ BUT any works of iniquity on that foundation will be removed when any believer has unrepentant iniquity still on that foundation when God judges His House first at the pre great trib rapture event. That means Catholics are at risk of being left behind to be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.... unless they repent of the works of Catholicism and all other iniquities before the Bridegroom comes. The same goes for any believer; Baptist also.

The only way any believer and any church can be found ready & abiding in Him is by abiding in His words; not the word of the Church's that goes beyond what is written.

As important as the works of Catholicism are for the means of salvation, that is nowhere stated plainly as such to seek the Church for the means of salvation because after His resurrection, they were not preaching Peter & his church nor any church as the authority, but still preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Good News to man and His words for abiding in Him as His disciples.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

I know only God can help you see past the Church's bifocals to see His words as the authority reproving the dead works of Catholicism for what they are. You are not to be a disciple of the Catholic Church because that is not your savior. Jesus is.

 

[Adonia]

Co-equal is misleading since it is the Father's will to be done and the Holy Spirit has no authority to speak other than what He ears ( John 16:13 ), but the Holy Spirit is God as being One of the Three Witnesses within the One God ( 1 John 5:6-9 KJV ).

Being co-equal is not misleading in any way. It's like when Jesus speaks, He says He is speaking the Father's words - they are in essence the same. So it is with the Holy Spirit, one who is a co-equal within the Trinity. Father Baker has gotten it right, he speaks with the voice of the entire Church, all the voices within it, all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit while on the other hand you are but one voice. You are misleading with your interpretation, and I am not fooled into being mislead by you.

I will stick with following the teachings of God's Holy Church as regards Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word. I am not a theologian, nor do I play one on TV, so I will continue to trust in God's Holy Church for the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, thank you very much!

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Being co-equal is not misleading in any way. It's like when Jesus speaks, He says He is speaking the Father's words - they are in essence the same. So it is with the Holy Spirit, one who is a co-equal within the Trinity. Father Baker has gotten it right, he speaks with the voice of the entire Church, all the voices within it, all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit while on the other hand you are but one voice. You are misleading with your interpretation, and I am not fooled into being mislead by you.

I did not mean to imply you were misleading since a lot of believers are saying that about God being co-equal. I am just addressing the issue of the Holy Spirit being co-equal with the Father & the Son. So let's stick to the issue and not attack one another.

What you said is another example of how the Holy Spirit is not "so-equal" just as the Son is not "co-equal" because it is the Father's words They speak just as it is the Father's will that is done in Heaven and in earth, even though They are the 3 Witnesses that make up the One God where each Person of that One God is God.

I will stick with following the teachings of God's Holy Church as regards Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word. I am not a theologian, nor do I play one on TV, so I will continue to trust in God's Holy Church for the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, thank you very much!

His disciples abide in Him by abiding in His words. When He says "I know you not whence ye are, depart from me ye workers of iniquity", that is not Him saying that the professing believers are not saved, but they are disqualified for being workers of iniquity still and thus denied attendance to the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth......11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So go ahead. Ask the Church to interpret the scripture above for you. I bet they use it as justification for executing heretics, and your Church has done it too for which you should ask them to interpret this scripture below.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jesus said what Paul meant clearly.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

That should tell you that your Church is not doing a very good job of interpreting scripture for you. Jesus Christ is your Good Shepherd; He is the One to rely on all the time, because He is in you & is with you always since you had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead; and yet your Church by her words, says you are not saved yet if you do not persevere in charity in her catechism. How is executing heretic showing love for those that have gone astray with no more chance of repentance to come back into the fold?

Executing heretics was the only way an oppressive and corrupted church could keep others from leaving the fold.

Your Church actions should speak louder than their words, because after all these years, the Church do not have an answer as in a correct interpretation of the scripture that oppose their misapplication of scripture.

But only Jesus Christ can give you the love you need to love Him & His words more than your Church and their errant words in order for Him to help you to leave her.

Thanks for sharing, brother. I can hope God is peradventuring today to recover you from Catholic heresies so you will be found abiding in Him & His words when the Bridegroom comes to take the abiding bride to the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great trib rapture event when God shall judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ).

 

[utilyan]

"Scripture has sole authority because the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the Head of the Church; not the Church. "

God is the highest authority. WORD of GOD does not equal writings only. Scripture records and mentions the word of God, the word of God is Jesus Christ.

Scripture is not the ONLY medium by which God communicates.


Ephesians 5

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Church and Jesus is one flesh. So your forced to throw the baby with the bathwater.

1 timothy 3

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Without a proper AUTHORITY to interpret scripture one could argue I never heard the gospel at all.

THE Pillar, THE ground of the truth. THE CHURCH.

The second you tell anyone they are wrong about what they read in scripture you already agree with us by insisting yourself as the proper authority to interpret the scripture.

You literally insist it can only mean what you say it means.


Can you name ONE LIVING PERSON beneath Jesus Christ who has a better understanding of scripture then you do?



If you don't name anyone its what we call MINI-POPE. Understanding goes from GOD to THEM. Kind of folks who would argue with Jesus if he was around, pull out the bible and tell Jesus what he actually meant.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Give me the name of ABSOLUTELY ANYONE living who is a better Christian than you.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

"Scripture has sole authority because the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is the Head of the Church; not the Church. "

God is the highest authority. WORD of GOD does not equal writings only. Scripture records and mentions the word of God, the word of God is Jesus Christ.

Scripture is not the ONLY medium by which God communicates.

Scripture is the only medium by how Jesus as the Head of the church governs the church, the body of believers.

You can point out how His disciples and Church govern by Jesus Christ Whom is the head through the Holy Spirit in each believer and thus through the body of believers, the church, but guess what? It is still done by His words; the scripture.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 5

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Church and Jesus is one flesh. So your forced to throw the baby with the bathwater.

The Church is not the Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church, the body of believers; as that Church is still under the ministry and authority of His words.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 timothy 3

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Without a proper AUTHORITY to interpret scripture one could argue I never heard the gospel at all.

THE Pillar, THE ground of the truth. THE CHURCH.

The second you tell anyone they are wrong about what they read in scripture you already agree with us by insisting yourself as the proper authority to interpret the scripture.

You literally insist it can only mean what you say it means.


Can you name ONE LIVING PERSON beneath Jesus Christ who has a better understanding of scripture then you do?



If you don't name anyone its what we call MINI-POPE. Understanding goes from GOD to THEM. Kind of folks who would argue with Jesus if he was around, pull out the bible and tell Jesus what he actually meant.

Please tell me I'm wrong. Give me the name of ABSOLUTELY ANYONE living who is a better Christian than you.

How does the authority of the Catholic Church gets challenged & reproved by what they teach? By the authority of the scripture. Of course, only God can cause the increase, but it is still by His word; the scripture.

 

[Adonia]

What you said is another example of how the Holy Spirit is not "so-equal" just as the Son is not "co-equal" because it is the Father's words They speak just as it is the Father's will that is done in Heaven and in earth, even though They are the 3 Witnesses that make up the One God where each Person of that One God is God.

Good grief, are we even reading the same Scriptures? You are missing the truth of the co-equal Triune Godhead. This is the basic Christian teaching that goes back to the beginning. If you can't accept that, then there is nothing more that I can say except this is what happens when you have a go-it-alone Christianity and try to figure these things out by yourself.

Thanks for sharing, brother. I can hope God is peradventuring today to recover you from Catholic heresies

The only one putting out heresies here is you. When you deny the co-equalness of the Triune God and say the Nicene Creed is not biblical, those two belief's of yours alone tells me all I need to know about you as regards your scriptural interpretational abilities. Have a wonderful day!

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Good grief, are we even reading the same Scriptures? You are missing the truth of the co-equal Triune Godhead. This is the basic Christian teaching that goes back to the beginning. If you can't accept that, then there is nothing more that I can say except this is what happens when you have a go-it-alone Christianity and try to figure these things out by yourself.

Figure it out for myself? Not when I am trusting Jesus Christ to be my Good Shepherd in giving me wisdom in understanding His words, I am not.

You are trusting your Church which is not the same as trusting Jesus Christ personally.

The only one putting out heresies here is you. When you deny the co-equalness of the Triune God and say the Nicene Creed is not biblical, those two belief's of yours alone tells me all I need to know about you as regards your scriptural interpretational abilities. Have a wonderful day!

Do you deny that it is the Father's will that shall be done or not as the Son taught for us to pray? Then where is the co-equal in that?

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

I am not saying that the Holy Spirit and the Son are not God, because They are One as being with the Father as the One God

But scripture defines each role of the Three Witnesses within the One God, but if you are going to take the Church's word for it when not everything they taught cannot be unopposed by other scripture plainly in the N.T. , then I cannot help you, brother.

Just know that after all these years, the Catholic Church still does not have an answer for every scripture that opposes what they teach... unless you consider "silence" their answer. That's hardly reassuring for you, is it?

 

[Adonia]

I am not saying...

You are saying too many things that go against orthodox Christianity. I am an orthodox Christian and that is the end of the story.

That's hardly reassuring for you, is it?

I am completely assured of the correctness of the Universal Church's take on things concerning salvation and Jesus Christ. As far as I am concerned they have got it right - you my friend have got it wrong. It's just that simple.

 

[utilyan]

Scripture is the only medium by how Jesus as the Head of the church governs the church, the body of believers.

You can point out how His disciples and Church govern by Jesus Christ Whom is the head through the Holy Spirit in each believer and thus through the body of believers, the church, but guess what? It is still done by His words; the scripture.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



The Church is not the Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church, the body of believers; as that Church is still under the ministry and authority of His words.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



How does the authority of the Catholic Church gets challenged & reproved by what they teach? By the authority of the scripture. Of course, only God can cause the increase, but it is still by His word; the scripture.

"Scripture is the only medium by how Jesus as the Head of the church governs the church, the body of believers."

Can you cite scripture to back up your false doctrine?

I can cite "DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME" Which we do and they do by the motive of the original command not scripture.


Nothing in scripture declares a supremacy of writing over speaking and hearing. Nor that writings are the only source of authority.

You have yet to provide any biblical backing.


In fact I don't think you even believe your own statement, because you believe YOU yourself are the highest authority.

Just name anyone in the entire world who has better understanding of Christianity.

I doubt any name given because PRIDE and VANITY declares There can't possibly be anyone with a better understanding then YOU. After you then God.

Tell me I'm wrong.



"The Church is not the Christ."

Then your not in the right church. You are going backwards from the unity Jesus Christ expresses at the Cross.

Instead of the curtain of the holy of holies ripping in half, you are trying to erect a brick wall.

A church is not a group of people putting in a job application with God.



I get the sense you fear the following question.......

Can you name ONE LIVING PERSON beneath Jesus Christ who has a better understanding of scripture then you do?

Give me the name of ABSOLUTELY ANYONE living who is a better Christian than you.


All MINI-POPES go from God to themselves.


Self proclaim prophets come dime a dozen...... they shut down real quick because they always believe themselves above all.