How Much Authority Does A Church Have?

[HopefulNChrist]

You are saying too many things that go against orthodox Christianity.

You don't seem to have a problem when orthodox Christianity said too many things beyond what was written of His words.

I am an orthodox Christian and that is the end of the story.

That is the same thing as saying you are a disciple of orthodox Christianity rather than being a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I am completely assured of the correctness of the Universal Church's take on things concerning salvation and Jesus Christ. As far as I am concerned they have got it right - you my friend have got it wrong. It's just that simple.

Jesus never said to come to a church for life; He said scripture testify of Him so you can come to Him for life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So while you are stopping to listen to me, stop listening to the church and just start listening to what Jesus is actually saying. He is the only One that scripture says can present you faultless in Heaven; not the church.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So trust Him; no a fallible church. If the "Church" was truly following Jesus, then the Church would be pointing you to go to Him for life and to follow Him by His words alone... but the Church isn't doing that.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

"Scripture is the only medium by how Jesus as the Head of the church governs the church, the body of believers."

Can you cite scripture to back up your false doctrine?

Scripture has been given that support how I am applying scripture to be the final authority on any given matter for discerning good and evil by... and that is with the understanding as scripture testify that we are to prove everything by Him at that throne of grace.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Each believer rooted in the word is to prove all things by Him BY the scripture, including any pet doctrines created by their church.

Can you cite scripture to back up your false doctrine that the scripture does not have sole authority?

Do look up your Bible version of 1 Corinthians 4:6 since you applied it to me that men are not to exceed what is written; then how is it you are not applying it to a church?

As only God can cause the increase for what He is leading me to share .. and that is by His words, scripture is the only means by which any one in authority governs, minister, and correct by.. and that is by the scripture; the Word of God.

You claim there is no rule in scripture in spite of His many words in scripture to the contrary, but you have no scripture citing that there is no rule that scripture is the final authority.

Indeed, how did you determine the authority of the Catholic Church as not one of authority? By the scripture. Is that not the reality that scripture has sole authority or not, until Jesus Christ comes?

 

[utilyan]

Scripture has been given that support how I am applying scripture to be the final authority on any given matter for discerning good and evil by... and that is with the understanding as scripture testify that we are to prove everything by Him at that throne of grace.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Each believer rooted in the word is to prove all things by Him BY the scripture, including any pet doctrines created by their church.

Can you cite scripture to back up your false doctrine that the scripture does not have sole authority?

Do look up your Bible version of 1 Corinthians 4:6 since you applied it to me that men are not to exceed what is written; then how is it you are not applying it to a church?

As only God can cause the increase for what He is leading me to share .. and that is by His words, scripture is the only means by which any one in authority governs, minister, and correct by.. and that is by the scripture; the Word of God.

You claim there is no rule in scripture in spite of His many words in scripture to the contrary, but you have no scripture citing that there is no rule that scripture is the final authority.

Indeed, how did you determine the authority of the Catholic Church as not one of authority? By the scripture. Is that not the reality that scripture has sole authority or not, until Jesus Christ comes?

I have no problem correcting any person or religion by scripture. Indeed I am correcting you with scripture right now.

2 Thessalonians 2

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Let me put the glasses MEN have forced on you and read the same verse.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the TEACHINGS which ye have been taught by SCRIPTURE ONLY.


Which of these verses is TRUE? Is the word of GOD true? or is the word people have forced on you?


Look at the very scripture you quoted, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." NONE of it mentions scripture at all, let alone SCRIPTURE ONLY.

Let me put the glasses MEN have forced on you:

"Prove all things WITH SCRIPTURE ONLY; hold fast that which is good.

Which of these verses is TRUE? Is the word of GOD true? or is the word people have forced on you?


You are not pulling teachings from scripture. You are starting with a philosophy indoctrinated and trying to force it into scripture. Namely a unbiblical doctrine that only scripture has authority.


"Scripture has been given that support how I am applying scripture to be the final authority on any given matter for discerning good and evil by."

No you have not. I just quoted one verse telling you straight to your face TRADITION by word of MOUTH OR Epistle.

Will you deny it? If you deny the scriptures you are NOT a bible believer.

Traditions of MEN wish he said by epistle/writings ONLY. He could have easily wrote that , but he did not because he did not want to give you a FALSE teaching.

God is not a fool and neither are the authors of the bible. Show us where they say the only authority is SCRIPTURE ONLY.

You are believing a false teaching. You can't even quote anything to support it, because it is UNBIBLICAL.

We bible believers do not add fake teachings. We neither pretend a verse says something else.

Your mistake is a common novice mistake. I don't want you to believe that people who gave you that false teaching have evil intentions, I believe we all want to please God including them.

Indeed it sounds like a GREAT IDEA that scripture alone is the only authority. But your idea itself is not found in scripture.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

Instead of defending the traditions of men that gave you this teaching, why don't you defend the word of God instead? For God's name stand with the TRUTH. See what the scripture teaches not what you wished scripture teaches.

 

[robycop3]

Being co-equal is not misleading in any way. It's like when Jesus speaks, He says He is speaking the Father's words - they are in essence the same. So it is with the Holy Spirit, one who is a co-equal within the Trinity. Father Baker has gotten it right, he speaks with the voice of the entire Church, all the voices within it, all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit while on the other hand you are but one voice. You are misleading with your interpretation, and I am not fooled into being mislead by you.

I will stick with following the teachings of God's Holy Church as regards Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word. I am not a theologian, nor do I play one on TV, so I will continue to trust in God's Holy Church for the correct interpretation of the Scriptures, thank you very much!

What do you define as "God's Holy Church"? The RCC, with all its man-made false doctrines such as mariolatry, purgatory, indulgences, celibacy for its clergy, and man-made saints?

 

[robycop3]

Someone please show me where we now have any higher earthly authority of faith/worship than SCRIPTURE.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

I have no problem correcting any person or religion by scripture. Indeed I am correcting you with scripture right now..

Actions speak louder than words when His words are applied rightly.

You keep claiming scripture is not the sole authority and tried to use it vainly without using the authority of the Church or any other authority to do so. Why is that? Because scripture is the sole authority.

 

[utilyan]

Someone please show me where we now have any higher earthly authority of faith/worship than SCRIPTURE.

Sure the guys who can picked the out bible.

I put you in front of different versions, fakes, forgeries, extra gospels ect. Scripture is not going to tell you which is right. Someone did it for you. For example if you use a King James. King James is your authority. Its called the King Jame Authorized Bible.


When you got started in Christianity you didn't walk up to 1000s of gospels fakes, forgeries, and say "okay im going to take these 4 right here"

No-no-no. Someone took you by the hand put you on the table and placed the books nicely organized for you.

Can you name the 66 books off the top of your head? Without a google? For plenty of folks google is the authority.

Someone already did all the dirty work for you.

 

[utilyan]

Actions speak louder than words when His words are applied rightly.

You keep claiming scripture is not the sole authority and tried to use it vainly without using the authority of the Church or any other authority to do so. Why is that? Because scripture is the sole authority.

How about you cite scripture for your false unbiblical teaching?

Your teaching is not taught in the bible, because that teaching is false.

We bible believers don't add fake rules into the scriptures. This debate should have been over days ago.

Its a piece of cake for me because I know your teaching is not in the bible. Literally breaking your own rule.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


Give me the chapter and verse. I don't think you are a bible believer.

What kind of person claims their teaching is biblical, swears its in there, and then provides nothing? Common.

 

[utilyan]

What do you define as "God's Holy Church"? The RCC, with all its man-made false doctrines such as mariolatry, purgatory, indulgences, celibacy for its clergy, and man-made saints?

We can find biblical backing for all those teachings. But for the sake of argument suppose the catholic church does not exist.

That still doesn't make the false doctrine of scripture being the only authority biblical or true. When you get backed into a corner with no answer your only choice is to lash out.

The best scriptural case I ever heard FOR scripture being the only authority comes from catholics.

Catholics will point to the old testament where a Jewish king found Jewish scriptures that were long lost. Ill look it up and explain it if you don't know the story.

The typical knee-jerk response from non-catholics is to quote Timothy where clearly they are only talking about equipping a christian for good works not mentioning anything at all about authority much less about scripture being the only authority.

You've been indoctrinated with a unbiblical rule which was a common novice mistake.

The whole issue can be settled quite quickly if you simply cite the scripture that states the bible is the only authority.

Anyone who reads the scripture and cites what scripture SAYS oppose to trying to force their own teaching is not going to find anything at all that says scripture is the only authority, and your best theologian know this, protestant theologians will tell you Jesus Christ did not practice it, neither the jews , nor the apostles nor the hearers of our Lord.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Sure the guys who can picked the out bible.

I put you in front of different versions, fakes, forgeries, extra gospels ect. Scripture is not going to tell you which is right. Someone did it for you. .

Scripture cannot go against scripture if you want to know why the lost books were considered not scripture.

Jesus validify scripture.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus prophesied that we will need Him to prove which scripture were kept by those who loved Him from those that did not.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Paul exhorts this necessity to rely on Jesus Christ to prove which scripture was kept by those who loved Him & His words.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Even the Old Testament is a guide to determining the keeping of His words in the scripture.

Psalm 119:157 Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158 I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.

For example if you use a King James. King James is your authority. Its called the King Jame Authorized Bible

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

King James did not do the work. 54 translators were selected to do the work but only 47 actually did the work, even had others double checked their work. You should read up on that work at the link provided before saying something so erroneous as implying that King James being the "one" just because it was his authority for that work to be done.

Who Were The King James Version Translators?

After several requests by the Puritans whom have made complaints against errant marginal notes in the 1599 Geneva Bible that were running against scripture, and with other reasons of his own, was when King James finally gave in to have that work done.

When you got started in Christianity you didn't walk up to 1000s of gospels fakes, forgeries, and say "okay im going to take these 4 right here"

No-no-no. Someone took you by the hand put you on the table and placed the books nicely organized for you.

Can you name the 66 books off the top of your head? Without a google? For plenty of folks google is the authority.

Someone already did all the dirty work for you.

So basically, your argument is that scripture has no "real" authority. You are teaching something that not only exceeds what is written but denouncing what is written as unreliable and not to be held in any authority at all.

And yet scripture says you can prove all things by Jesus Christ at the throne of grace to know that the source origin for the Textus Receptus being of Antioch where the disciples were first called Christians, are reliable rather than the source documents at Alexandria where poetic licensing and Gnosticism has been known to exists in the area.

Just go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus for wisdom to see which source o scripture loved Him to keep His words as that source will not decline from the testimonies of the Son in seeking His glory for those to come to Him for life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

How about you cite scripture for your false unbiblical teaching?

Your teaching is not taught in the bible, because that teaching is false.

We bible believers don't add fake rules into the scriptures. This debate should have been over days ago.

Its a piece of cake for me because I know your teaching is not in the bible. Literally breaking your own rule.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


Give me the chapter and verse. I don't think you are a bible believer.

What kind of person claims their teaching is biblical, swears its in there, and then provides nothing? Common.

Hypocrisy is using the authority of the Bible for dismissing the Bible as unreliable and therefore no authority at all. It is one or the other. And yet you would give that authority to someone else or an organization on earth for the believers to submit to, outside the scripture.

 

[robycop3]

Sure the guys who can picked the out bible.

I put you in front of different versions, fakes, forgeries, extra gospels ect. Scripture is not going to tell you which is right. Someone did it for you. For example if you use a King James. King James is your authority. Its called the King Jame Authorized Bible.


When you got started in Christianity you didn't walk up to 1000s of gospels fakes, forgeries, and say "okay im going to take these 4 right here"

No-no-no. Someone took you by the hand put you on the table and placed the books nicely organized for you.

Can you name the 66 books off the top of your head? Without a google? For plenty of folks google is the authority.

Someone already did all the dirty work for you.

No, not one of them was an AUTHORITY.
Every religious truth another person told me was FROM SCRIPTURE.
Some told me some lies, such as the KJVO myth and preterism.
And some were wannabee or pretend-authorities.
But again, SCRIPTURE was the only TRUE authority.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

No, not one of them was an AUTHORITY.
Every religious truth another person told me was FROM SCRIPTURE.
Some told me some lies, such as the KJVO myth and preterism.
And some were wannabee or pretend-authorities.
But again, SCRIPTURE was the only TRUE authority.

What are the lies of the KJVO myth?

If all Bibles versions testify in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself; and the KJV has kept the truth of John 16:13 in Romans 8:26-27 by how the intercessions of the Holy Spirit are silent as even His groanings cannot be uttered, and that is why those who discern verse 27 would recognize that the "he" is the Son that searches our hearts as confirmed in Hebrews4:12-16 and this "he" is the same One that knows the mind of the Spirit as it is the will of God for the Son to be the only Mediator between God and men, then which Bible should you be relying on to prove that the Holy Spirit CANNOT use God's gift of tongues as a prayer language for uttering His own intercessions?

 

[robycop3]

We can find biblical backing for all those teachings. But for the sake of argument suppose the catholic church does not exist.

HORSE FEATHERS! Show me where Scripture makes Mary a "mediatrix" between God & man, or authorized the office of pope.

That still doesn't make the false doctrine of scripture being the only authority biblical or true. When you get backed into a corner with no answer your only choice is to lash out.

Lashing out about this is not necessary, as you CANNOT show me any earthly religious authority besides Scripture.

The best scriptural case I ever heard FOR scripture being the only authority comes from catholics.

...Along with a host of NON-SCRIPTURAL, MAN-MADE points.

Catholics will point to the old testament where a Jewish king found Jewish scriptures that were long lost. Ill look it up and explain it if you don't know the story.

I likely know that story better than you. What did the Jews do upon the uncovering of those scrolls? They HUMBLED THEMSELVES & prayed to God for forgiveness for not having followed His laws within them. The king & priests considered the written law THEIR authority.

The typical knee-jerk response from non-catholics is to quote Timothy where clearly they are only talking about equipping a christian for good works not mentioning anything at all about authority much less about scripture being the only authority.

See any authority other than Scripture invoked?????????

You've been indoctrinated with a unbiblical rule which was a common novice mistake.

The whole issue can be settled quite quickly if you simply cite the scripture that states the bible is the only authority.

Anyone who reads the scripture and cites what scripture SAYS oppose to trying to force their own teaching is not going to find anything at all that says scripture is the only authority, and your best theologian know this, protestant theologians will tell you Jesus Christ did not practice it, neither the jews , nor the apostles nor the hearers of our Lord.

Again, WHAT OTHER EARTHLY RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY IS THERE????????????????????????

How did JESUS answer Satan atop the temple roof? he said, to each statement of Satan's..."It is WRITTEN.,..". (Remember, Jesus authority over Scripture, being The Word Himself! He gave most Scripture to man thru His chosen penmen.)

What did Satan do? Did he argue against the authority of Scripture? No; he moved on to another attempt at temptation.

 

[robycop3]

What are the lies of the KJVO myth?

If all Bibles versions testify in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself; and the KJV has kept the truth of John 16:13 in Romans 8:26-27 by how the intercessions of the Holy Spirit are silent as even His groanings cannot be uttered, and that is why those who discern verse 27 would recognize that the "he" is the Son that searches our hearts as confirmed in Hebrews4:12-16 and this "he" is the same One that knows the mind of the Spirit as it is the will of God for the Son to be the only Mediator between God and men, then which Bible should you be relying on to prove that the Holy Spirit CANNOT use God's gift of tongues as a prayer language for uttering His own intercessions?

Show me just one verse of SCRIPTURE supporting the MAN-MADE KJVO myth in the KJV itself!

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Show me just one verse of SCRIPTURE supporting the MAN-MADE KJVO myth in the KJV itself!

I am asking you what are the lies of the KJVO myth?

The other part of my post was explaining why I rely only on the KJV.

I do not know everything that makes up the KJVO and so that is why I just explained why I rely only on the KJV for the meat of His words in discerning good and evil by. That is not the same as ascribing to everything that is KJVO.

That is why I am asking you what are the lies of the KJVO myth in general? You do not need to refer to a web site. I just want your understanding of what the lies of the KJVO myth are.

 

[Salty]

I am asking you what are the lies of the KJVO myth?

That is why I am asking you what (...) of the KJVO myth in general? You do not need to refer to a web site. I just want your understanding of what the lies of the KJVO myth are.

I just realized this thread is about church authority -lets get back on track

To continue the KJO discussion click on this new BB page:

I have answere Hopes question - on the new thread.

 

[Salty]

A church has full authority over its own affairs, however, any (major) decision should be made
with prayer as well as dedicated and Spirit led leadership

 

[HopefulNChrist]

I just realized this thread is about church authority -lets get back on track

To continue the KJO discussion click on this new BB page:

I have answere Hopes question - on the new thread.

Thank you, Salty.

I can only hope @robycop3 will continue the discussion there.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

A church has full authority over its own affairs, however, any (major) decision should be made with prayer as well as dedicated and Spirit led leadership

But the church's authority is limited when scripture of the N.T. can reprove any decision that church has made.