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The Gift Ministries

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by jeremiah1five, Oct 17, 2018.

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  1. jeremiah1five

    jeremiah1five Member

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    Hey JonSchaff.
    Good analogy on the money. I will quote you some time in this.
    Jon, if I may call you Jon, you do understand that these five offices are held by Christ, and that in the Church Age, Christ manifests Himself through these five offices, and that to deny any office that Christ holds is to deny Christ Himself and causes a deformity in the Church because Christ as Apostle is not allowed to manifest Himself through that office. Any church fellowship that does not acknowledge these offices in the church that Christ owns is to put a muzzle on the Lord Himself and prevents the Holy Spirit from expressing Himself to His people?

    It's like cutting off ones' thumb and then going out to play a game of baseball and trying to swing a bat when it's your time up to the mound.

    Self-mutilation is what it is called.

    Well, When Christ returns He will set that record straight. In the meantime I'll be sitting behind the fence behind the mound. A person with a bat and no thumb is dangerous.
     
    #41 jeremiah1five, Oct 18, 2018
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    And just as you are entitled to your prerogative.
     
    #42 HankD, Oct 18, 2018
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So say you.

    Christ and His Father is greater than any apostle.

    John 10
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
     
    #43 HankD, Oct 18, 2018
  4. jeremiah1five

    jeremiah1five Member

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    I am not entitled to my prerogative. not me.
    God says what He means and means what He says. There is only ONE Truth to what God says, but many applications.

    The teaching that Christ is no longer necessary in His apostles is unbiblical and that is what the cessation theory is.

    Unbiblical.

    I know better.
     
    #44 jeremiah1five, Oct 18, 2018
  5. jeremiah1five

    jeremiah1five Member

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    Once a son, ALWAYS a son.

    Eternal security. I receive that in Jesus' Name.

    Amen.

    HankD, show me in Scripture where it is found that John would be the last apostle and that upon his death there would be no more apostles, the the apostleship begun by Christ would cease?
    Where in Scripture is it found?
    Because if it's not in Scripture then what is it that you are believing in?

    In your next response show me in Scripture these things I ask.

    Where in Scripture is it found that after John's death there will be no more apostles?

    There is none.

    I can show you in Scripture and reason more passages that prove Judas is with His Master and "kept."

    But first you.

    Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and always be ready to give and answer to those that ask of the hope in you.

    Bring it.
     
    #45 jeremiah1five, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  6. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Jon is fine :)
     
    #46 JonShaff, Oct 18, 2018
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  7. jeremiah1five

    jeremiah1five Member

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    Excellent!
     
    #47 jeremiah1five, Oct 18, 2018
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  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So do I.
     
    #48 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
     
    #49 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
  10. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    How does this prove the gift of an apostle has ceased?
     
    #50 JonShaff, Oct 19, 2018
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I believe that paul was indeed the replacement for Judas, as he was the last chosen Apostle by Jesus Himself!
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Oct 19, 2018
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There were/are/will ever be 12 apostles throughout eternity.

    I explained before that apostolon, apostoloi does not necessarily applier to THE 12 apostles.

    The Greek word(s) may mean "messenger", "sent one" but not one of the 12.

    Just because the KJV translators "transliterated" the word in some cases and in other cases gave its functional meaning does not mean "apostle" refers to the 12.

    In the last book of the Bible the Apostle John says there are 12 apostles of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God of the Eternal City the New Jerusalem.

    Apostolic cessation happened in eternity.
     
    #52 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Scripture says otherwise. I believe i have counted 25 as concerning the ministry gift of Ephesians 4. The Apostles of the Lamb in Rev. are a subset, a special calling with a special purpose. Paul even says that in 1 Cor. 12--different administrations of the same gift.
     
    #53 JonShaff, Oct 19, 2018
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Go back and read my last post, I expanded it.

    Had the Revelation 21:14 not been given I would perhaps give a little more credence to apostolic succession.
    I don't prolong issues. It is usually fruitless.
    You have my response.
     
    #54 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I see it now.

    This is something that you were told, not something God revealed to you in the plain reading of Scripture. Jesus is the Head Apostle, that Makes 13. Paul, Mathias, Judas, Jude, Timothy, Titus, Etc. etc. all contradict your teaching.

    Paul said that these gifts would remain until the day of Christ's return.

    1 Corinthians 1
    4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you.7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

    It's time we start believing the Word of God over the traditions of men.
     
    #55 JonShaff, Oct 19, 2018
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  16. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Romans 16:7
    ἀπόστολος apostolos

    1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2:6

    There are 5 additional apostles right there.
     
    #56 JonShaff, Oct 19, 2018
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    In this case I would like to prolong the issue a little more.

    Apostolic succession implies a succession going back to the original 12 apostles.
    OR
    An authoritative body to confer the gift.
    OR
    Someone claiming and able to prove they are an apostle.

    May I see you list of predecessors if the first above? OR
    Who is the authority for conferring it OR
    What evidence is there forthcoming if someone claims they are an apostle?
     
    #57 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Final thought....

    Was Jude, the half brother of Christ an apostle? He did write Scripture.
     
    #58 JonShaff, Oct 19, 2018
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  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
    These men were "men of note" who traveled with the apostles, they were among then but not of the 12 Apostles.
     
    #59 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
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  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I am sincerely interested in your view Jon, easy to converse with.

    Yes I believe Jude was an apostle (of the 12).

    What is the function of present day apostle?
    See post #57
     
    #60 HankD, Oct 19, 2018
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