The Gift Ministries

[jeremiah1five]

Unfortunately, there is a stigma concerning "Apostles and Prophets." However, just because there are counterfeits running around, does not mean there are not true ones. Does the reality of counterfeit money stop you from using real money? You may be more cautious, particularly if you are a business owner or on the receiving side, but that should not prevent the usage of real money.

Hey JonSchaff.
Good analogy on the money. I will quote you some time in this.
Jon, if I may call you Jon, you do understand that these five offices are held by Christ, and that in the Church Age, Christ manifests Himself through these five offices, and that to deny any office that Christ holds is to deny Christ Himself and causes a deformity in the Church because Christ as Apostle is not allowed to manifest Himself through that office. Any church fellowship that does not acknowledge these offices in the church that Christ owns is to put a muzzle on the Lord Himself and prevents the Holy Spirit from expressing Himself to His people?

It's like cutting off ones' thumb and then going out to play a game of baseball and trying to swing a bat when it's your time up to the mound.

Self-mutilation is what it is called.

Well, When Christ returns He will set that record straight. In the meantime I'll be sitting behind the fence behind the mound. A person with a bat and no thumb is dangerous.

 

[HankD]

That's your prerogative, HankD, but the tradition Jesus blasted was that of the religious leaders who only knew the letter of the law, and the tradition that Paul speaks of is what he taught them which was spirit of the law and consistent with Biblical Christianity. You are confusing the two. But as I said that is your prerogative to hold to the traditions of men because what this thread has revealed using the Scripture, the tradition you hold to is erroneous because it is man's tradition, not God's/Bible.

And just as you are entitled to your prerogative.

 

[HankD]

You believe error, and there is nothing I can say - nor is there anything the Scripture can say that clearly reveals that denying the apostle is denying the life of Christ in is people.
It is plain. It is simple.

So say you.

Christ and His Father is greater than any apostle.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And just as you are entitled to your prerogative.

I am not entitled to my prerogative. not me.
God says what He means and means what He says. There is only ONE Truth to what God says, but many applications.

The teaching that Christ is no longer necessary in His apostles is unbiblical and that is what the cessation theory is.

Unbiblical.

I know better.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So say you.

Christ and His Father is greater than any apostle.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Once a son, ALWAYS a son.

Eternal security. I receive that in Jesus' Name.

Amen.

HankD, show me in Scripture where it is found that John would be the last apostle and that upon his death there would be no more apostles, the the apostleship begun by Christ would cease?
Where in Scripture is it found?
Because if it's not in Scripture then what is it that you are believing in?

In your next response show me in Scripture these things I ask.

Where in Scripture is it found that after John's death there will be no more apostles?

There is none.

I can show you in Scripture and reason more passages that prove Judas is with His Master and "kept."

But first you.

Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and always be ready to give and answer to those that ask of the hope in you.

Bring it.

 

[JonShaff]

Hey JonSchaff.
Good analogy on the money. I will quote you some time in this.
Jon, if I may call you Jon, you do understand that these five offices are held by Christ, and that in the Church Age, Christ manifests Himself through these five offices, and that to deny any office that Christ holds is to deny Christ Himself and causes a deformity in the Church because Christ as Apostle is not allowed to manifest Himself through that office. Any church fellowship that does not acknowledge these offices in the church that Christ owns is to put a muzzle on the Lord Himself and prevents the Holy Spirit from expressing Himself to His people?

It's like cutting off ones' thumb and then going out to play a game of baseball and trying to swing a bat when it's your time up to the mound.

Self-mutilation is what it is called.

Well, When Christ returns He will set that record straight. In the meantime I'll be sitting behind the fence behind the mound. A person with a bat and no thumb is dangerous.

Jon is fine

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jon is fine

Excellent!

 

[HankD]

I am not entitled to my prerogative. not me.
God says what He means and means what He says. There is only ONE Truth to what God says, but many applications.

The teaching that Christ is no longer necessary in His apostles is unbiblical and that is what the cessation theory is.

Unbiblical.

I know better.

So do I.

 

[HankD]

Once a son, ALWAYS a son.

Eternal security. I receive that in Jesus' Name.

Amen.

HankD, show me in Scripture where it is found that John would be the last apostle and that upon his death there would be no more apostles, the the apostleship begun by Christ would cease?
Where in Scripture is it found?
Because if it's not in Scripture then what is it that you are believing in?

In your next response show me in Scripture these things I ask.

Where in Scripture is it found that after John's death there will be no more apostles?

There is none.

I can show you in Scripture and reason more passages that prove Judas is with His Master and "kept."

But first you.

Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and always be ready to give and answer to those that ask of the hope in you.

Bring it.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[JonShaff]

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

How does this prove the gift of an apostle has ceased?

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul saw Christ on the road to Damascus
1 Corinthians 15
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Presumably to replace Judas.
Matthias Acts 1:26 - the choice of the apostles, the result of casting lots but perhaps not the choice of God.
Acts is an historical narrative infallible such as Judas' suicide in its account but not necessarily with God's stamp of approval.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

I believe that paul was indeed the replacement for Judas, as he was the last chosen Apostle by Jesus Himself!

 

[HankD]

How does this prove the gift of an apostle has ceased?

There were/are/will ever be 12 apostles throughout eternity.

I explained before that apostolon, apostoloi does not necessarily applier to THE 12 apostles.

The Greek word(s) may mean "messenger", "sent one" but not one of the 12.

Just because the KJV translators "transliterated" the word in some cases and in other cases gave its functional meaning does not mean "apostle" refers to the 12.

In the last book of the Bible the Apostle John says there are 12 apostles of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God of the Eternal City the New Jerusalem.

Apostolic cessation happened in eternity.

 

[JonShaff]

There were/are/will ever be 12 apostles throughout eternity.

Scripture says otherwise. I believe i have counted 25 as concerning the ministry gift of Ephesians 4. The Apostles of the Lamb in Rev. are a subset, a special calling with a special purpose. Paul even says that in 1 Cor. 12--different administrations of the same gift.

 

[HankD]

Scripture says otherwise. I believe i have counted 25 as concerning the ministry gift of Ephesians 4. The Apostles of the Lamb in Rev. are a subset, a special calling with a special purpose. Paul even says that in 1 Cor. 12--different administrations of the same gift.

Go back and read my last post, I expanded it.

Had the Revelation 21:14 not been given I would perhaps give a little more credence to apostolic succession.
I don't prolong issues. It is usually fruitless.
You have my response.

 

[JonShaff]

There were/are/will ever be 12 apostles throughout eternity.

I explained before that apostolon, apostoloi does not necessarily applier to THE 12 apostles.

The Greek word(s) may mean "messenger", "sent one" but not one of the 12.

Just because the KJV translators "transliterated" the word in some cases and in other cases gave its functional meaning does not mean "apostle" refers to the 12.

In the last book of the Bible the Apostle John says there are 12 apostles of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God of the Eternal City of the New Jerusalem.

Apostolic cessation happened in eternity.

Go back and read my last post, I expanded it.

I don't prolong issues. It is usually fruitless.
You have my response.

I see it now.

This is something that you were told, not something God revealed to you in the plain reading of Scripture. Jesus is the Head Apostle, that Makes 13. Paul, Mathias, Judas, Jude, Timothy, Titus, Etc. etc. all contradict your teaching.

Paul said that these gifts would remain until the day of Christ's return.

1 Corinthians 1
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you.7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

It's time we start believing the Word of God over the traditions of men.

 

[JonShaff]

I explained before that apostolon, apostoloi does not necessarily applier to THE 12 apostles.

Romans 16:7
ἀπόστολος apostolos

1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2:6

There are 5 additional apostles right there.

 

[HankD]

Scripture says otherwise. I believe i have counted 25 as concerning the ministry gift of Ephesians 4. The Apostles of the Lamb in Rev. are a subset, a special calling with a special purpose. Paul even says that in 1 Cor. 12--different administrations of the same gift.

In this case I would like to prolong the issue a little more.

Apostolic succession implies a succession going back to the original 12 apostles.
OR
An authoritative body to confer the gift.
OR
Someone claiming and able to prove they are an apostle.

May I see you list of predecessors if the first above? OR
Who is the authority for conferring it OR
What evidence is there forthcoming if someone claims they are an apostle?

 

[JonShaff]

Go back and read my last post, I expanded it.

Had the Revelation 21:14 not been given I would perhaps give a little more credence to apostolic succession.
I don't prolong issues. It is usually fruitless.
You have my response.

Final thought....

Was Jude, the half brother of Christ an apostle? He did write Scripture.

 

[HankD]

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
These men were "men of note" who traveled with the apostles, they were among then but not of the 12 Apostles.

 

[HankD]

Final thought....

Was Jude, the half brother of Christ an apostle? He did write Scripture.

I am sincerely interested in your view Jon, easy to converse with.

Yes I believe Jude was an apostle (of the 12).

What is the function of present day apostle?
See post #57