EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

First of all it does not say they were given Him before the foundation of the world. That a saying by Paul in ehp You and I did not exist at that time. By your reckoning Judas would be saved. I do not for a moment believe in Calvinism. Not to mention everyone is raised at the last day who is not caught up already..

If the drawing were effectual then I would have come the first time I was drawn. Many are drawn but only a few come. I've witnessed to men who were obviously drawn and still did not come to Christ. I've had some listen to the gospel intently and would shoved others aside just to hear what I was saying. I believe this is what is wrong with Calvinism. They wish to make it so complicated men can not do what's needed for Salvation. Christ does not force Him Self on anyone.

Salvation isn't so complicated as you have made it. It's simple, it's easy. All we have to do is believe in Christ. We don't have to worry about whether or not we have been chosen before we existed

I could not have been given before I existed. Only God is eternal and can grant life.
I freely admit that I haven't a clue what the Bible means by the term "before the foundation" And I'm not the least bit sure you do either. You assume you existed before you did. This isn't logical it's speculation.
Can you can prove you existed before the foundation of the world?
MB

 

If you will look at my literal language I said they were "all" given to him prior to the incarnation of Christ as that is indisputable because Jesus explicitly states that the reason for his coming into the world (v. 38) is to save those whom the Father had already "given" (perfect tense - v. 39) him prior to the incarnation. I DID NOT SAY THAT "ALL" COMING to Christ occurred before the foundation of the world.

You and I did not exist at the time the Father gave "ALL" that shall come to him existed as we did not exist prior to the incarnation.

Furthermore, the only time prior to the incaranation that such a giving point could occur is "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4) simply because he cannot give anyone he first does not choose to give and so choice precedes giving and givng preceded the incarnation. The only time Paul points to prior to the incarnation is in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" when they were chosen in him.

You apparently did not read or read but did not understand how Jeremiah explained the teaching act of God which is writing the law of God on your heart, thus transforming your heart from a hating resisting heart to a loving submissive heart to God and his law (Jer. 3:31-33-34). Jeremiah 31:33-34 is one of the prophetic sources referred to by Jesus in John 6:45 to explain what drawing means. Second, your interpretation of a previous drawings is not according to Jeremiah's explanation of what it is but according to your explanation of what it is - because - Jeremiah's explanation is complete transformation rather than some non-effectual attempt - which is your explanation. Read Jeremiah 31:33-34 or as it is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-13 and see if your view can be found??

wrong as that is never said in scripture. What the scripture says is many are CALLED but few chosen. Everyone who hears the gospel with the external ear is being called by men to come to Christ but the work of the Father is INTERNAL and that is explicited stated by Jeremiah 31:33 - read it!

 

Just to be clear let me repeat I did not say we existed prior to the incarnation. What I said was the act of God giving us occurred prior to the incarnation and "ALL" he gave at that pre-incarnation time to Christ "shall" come to him in time and space and "OF ALL" he had "given" at that pre-incarnation time "NONE SHALL PERISH." Hence, divine determination of their ultimate salvation preceded not only the coming of Christ to earth but the coming of "all" who do come to him in time and space as immutable.

I only brought in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" because that is when God chose us in Christ" and that is the only time provided before the incarnation that his act of giving could have occurred as he cannot give what he has not yet chosen first to give.

Since we were "chosen IN HIM" before the foundation of the world we had to have been "given to him" at that precise time as being chosen in him is to give them to him.

 

The Arminian view is that we become "in him" not before the foundation of the world but at the point of faith by our own choosing not by God's choosing. They define God's choosing based on seeing our choosing before we chose. So, even God's choosing does not place us in Christ but only confirms our choice to be in Christ.

However, that is not what Ephesians 1:4 says, It does not say we are in Christ by our own choosing that God foresaw. What it says, is that God chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:3 says nothing about foreknowing faith but that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. However, Paul tells us explicitly what God's foreknowledge is based upon, not foresee events but upon God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28 precedes 8:29).

Let me illustrate it like this. I built my house. Before it was built I knew where every room, every door, every window and every light socket would be placed. Why? Not because I foresaw future choices but because of the blue print in my hand had already determined all of these things. That is precisely what Paul gives as the cause that God "works all things....according to His purpose" (Rom.8:28) and that is the base of knowledge before hand.

If the Arminian view of foreknowledge were correct Paul would have said "God works all things....according to His foreknowledge" but he did not say that because foreknowledge is not the first cause but the consequence of the first cause "purpose".

 

I think you can do it, ITL, as long as you can type like 200 wpm of gibberish and flood the subject with 70 posts a day I'm sure you'll get your point across.

 

Icon, don't ever tire of that kind of argument? I thought by now you'd come to realize and admit the truth that Calvinism is no more than a philosophical constructed theological system which your presumed exegetical teaching is logically full of holes.

 

In other words, you have no answer Ben.

 

Yawn... if you agreed with me on the clear meaning of Deut 32:4 your whole philosophically constructed system of pre-determinism would fall apart, but I'm glad to see that passage still haunts you.

Consider my work on you there you being "kept".

As per yer Ephesians 1 attempt:

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

 

Regardless of how you said it being chosen before the foundation of the world is impossible. We did not exist before the foundation of the world.

I wasn't in Him before the foundation of the world. Christ chose all men to be saved but not all would be saved because they rejected Him. at this point you will disagree forgetting about Judas. An example

Wrong completely wrong. There is no such place in God's word according to the reference given by you. Jer.3 is only 25 verses long.

I have read Hebrews and it does not say what you claim. You must be confused

According to whom. We did not exist before the foundation and you'd be hard pressed to prove it from scripture because the word does not say this.
My point is that it seems you are taking scripture out of context.You certainly are lacking in proper references.

I do not believe that at all. Not only we did not exist we can't be in Him until we are saved. If what you claim is true there is no reason to believe or have faith. There is no reason for our Salvation because we were already in Him to begin with. We were born sinless, those of us who are chosen.
I mean why not it's your explanation of Calvinism. By the way I'm not Arminian my faith did not come out of Calvinism or the catholic church
MB

 

Are you denying that in the purpose of God prior to the foundation of the world we were chosen, that is chosen according to purpose? Nothing has to exist before time in order to be purposed by God as it is God's purpose that is the cause of bringing things into time and space. Ephesians 1:4 states the purpose of God, and then Ephesians 1:5-11 deals with working that purpose out in time and space.

That might be true as I don't know if you are a genuine saved person or not or ever will be such.

Jesus explcitly places him with those who never believed "from the beginning" and explicitly said to be a "demon". The only thing God chose him for was to be the "son of perdition" and to fill the office of apostle.

Even in the your quotation of my words it does not say "Jer. 3" but Jeremiah "31:33-34. You have the wrong text and that is why you can't find it in Hebrews because it is Jeremiah 31:32-34 that is quoted in hebrews. So, it is not I, but you who are confused because you misread my words.