Awesome. Another entry for the Calvinist dictionary.
Draw: Effectual Coming.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
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EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!
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Awesome. Another entry for the Calvinist dictionary.
Draw: Effectual Coming.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
I don't know how to take what you said. Are you mocking or are you serious?
Serious, with a smidgen of mocking. Calvinists need to redefine common words to make their theology work. Thus, "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 is redefined to mean "whosoever is believing". "The world" means "the elect". "All" means "the elect."
You have just redefined "draw" to mean "effectual coming."
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
Well, since you don't respond then I must interpret your words as mocking the idea that "Draw:Effectual Coming."
However, this is very easy to see IF you have an objective mind when dealing with the context of John 6. Let me give you 8 solid contextual based reasons why this is so:
1. The words "cometh to me" in the context of John 6 means "beleive on me" as verse 35 proves.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
So "cometh to me" is first metaphorically expressed as as satisfying hunger, then in parallel fashing he follows immediately but substituting "cometh to me" with " believeth on me" as satisfying thirst.
This is reaffirmed later in the context in verses 47-48 where believing in him is again put in metaphorical language as partaking of Christ as though he were literally food and drink.
2. In verse 45 Christ defines "draw" to mean "teach" and cites plural "prophets" which are Isaiah 54:13 and Jeremiah 31:33-34 where "all" those being taught are identified not in universal terms as "all mankind" without exception but "all THY CHIILDREN" (Isa. 54:13) in connection with the new covenant (Jer. 31:33-34) where every last one effectually comes to faith in God "from the least of them to the greatest of them" because this teaching is directly by God INSIDE of their heart as described in Jeremiah 31:33.
3. In verse 64, John identifies false professors as those the Father never did "give" this inward teaching unto and that is why they are still in unbelief, thus denying that drawing is universal without exception.
4. The same final clause first used by Christ in verse 39 to identify "ALL" those given to the Son wherein "ALL" effectually come to faith in Christ and "NONE" given fail to be saved, is also attached to verse 44 demonstrating that the given are the drawn.
5. Putting aside temporarily all disputed verses where "draw" is found (Jn. 6:44, 12:32) it is always found in the active voice (as it is in the disputed texts) denying those drawn are participating in that action, and secondarily in every case coming is simeltaneous and inseparable with the action of drawing - thus demanding - effectual coming.
6. The nearest antecedent for "him" in the second clause of John 6:44 has for its nearest antecedent "him" in the first clause proving the "him" drawn is the same "him" that will be raised up and the same "him" found in the previous uses of this same clause in verses 39, 40, 58 where there is no other application but to those given, who effectually come that never perish.
7. The use of "draw" in John 6 denies universal application to all men without exception but it restricts it to "all" given and "all" taught which are confined to the New Covenant.
8. The use of "draw" in John 12 denies it is retricted to merely Jewish covenant elect but is inclusive of all men without distinction of race, class or gender as this is directly included in his response to his disciples who tell him "Greeks" want to meet with him (Jn.12:20-32) which was unlawful for a Jew (Acts 10:28) to fellowship with which continued to be a problem to Jewish believers (Acts 15).
So, there is overwhelming contextual evidence that "draw" and "taught" describe the effectual work of God in his covenant people that brings them to faith.
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Wow. There you go again. Redefining words to make your theology fit.
"Cometh to Me" = "Believeth in me".
Another entry for the Calvinist dictionary.
So now hunger and thirst are the same thing.
Niice. Might as well double down on redefining words.
You're on a roll!
All Mankind = All my children
Fantastic stuff.
<snip rest>
Yeah, you got me.
Yes, the body PARTAKES of LIFE sustaining substances (food/drink) in order to maintain physical life. That is a metaphor of faith, or coming to Christ in faith as that is how a person PARTAKES of ETERNAL LIFE substance. He then introduces the literal (v. 48) with the metaphor again:
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (LITERAL)
48 I am that bread of life. (METAPHOR
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Then he changes from the metaphor of "bread" to the metaphor of "my flesh"
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Then he introduces his blood in addition to his body as what one must PARTAKE of in order to have eternal life.
So, back in verse 35 he introduces the sentence with only "bread" but then adds the metaphor to "drink" when talking about bread (you don't drink bread) just to show that his main idea is that both eating and drinking metaphorically mean the same thing - PARTAKING as metaphors for "cometh to me" or "believing in me."
Do you understand?
Changing the meaning of words is how Calvinist support their doctrine. Then they add words that are';t found in scripture. Like Sovereignty of God, not mentioned in the Bible, but they can claim God is Sovereign. Then restrict God on who He can save,because of that Sovereignty. God isn't Sovereign, He is almighty and will save the who so ever believes. regardless of what Calvinism says..
MB
MB
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ died for the whole world Not the world of Calvinist
MB
No it doesn't say He will save the whole world. Jn 3:16 clearly says he will save the who so ever's. It doesn't say he will save all the chosen Salvation is for those who believe and trust in Him
MB
I understand your semantic gymnastics to get your theology to fit scripture. I do not accept it.
That is your priviledge. But may I ask if you have any contextual based reasons that indicate my interpretation is wrong?
He did get you. It went right over your head. You cannot answer B so you mock and scoff, and deflect. If you think B is wrong answer him line by line. I am sure you cannot.
you have not demonstated you grasp any of this. If you are going to put forth your attacks, back up your words ITL...it is showtime, put up or....
5 pages into this thread and none of you can deal with the OP. Biblicist lays out a wealth of truth you can learn from, but instead, you oppose yourselves.
MB,
no it does not;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
no it does not;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
This must be from that special "Calvinist Bible" that you guys wield.
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