EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,
I had to drive overnight so I am responding a bit late.I did see this;

Thank you for your friendly interaction. I'm quite certain that we will not solve this issue anytime soon. It has been a pleasure discussing these issues with you, my friend.

I agree that the interaction was friendly among several brethren. We did not totally agree but the exchange of ideas can help us or others who read and follow.

You, my brother, are asking me to support a position that I have never argued. This is a classic strawman. Please show me where I asserted what you state above.

I do not want to put words in your mouth. I do not want to have you defend what you think is a misrepresentation. You defend a free will position that I do not see in the bible. You think it can be inferred, I do not.

God sovereignly giving us the freedom to either choose or accept His free gift of salvation, that is offered to all,

I know you want to defend this idea... I think it has no biblical support.

is in no way proclaiming that a man (saved or lost) can ever be "free from the bondage and reigning power of sin."

This is another issue and I believe Romans 6 teaches this very thing, that is a thread all by itself.

No, sir. What I have is God placing an "if" in our path and simply keeping His promise when we meet that conditional "if." God does not react, but He does respond. (II Chronicles 7:14; Jeremiah 33:3)[/QUOTE]

You believe in a contingency"if"... I believe there is a certainty.

It is found throughout the Word of God, my friend. You need look no further than the Garden of Eden.
Adam was clearly given a command and then the freedom of choice to obey or disobey. Unfortunately, he chose to disobey. Adam decided and God then did something - He did what He said He would do if Adam disobeyed and ate from the tree.

Post fall men are conceived dead in sin and bound by it. They are not neutral free agents, in innocence.

Perhaps you could refute my posts with Scripture instead of Wikipedia.

As there is not one verse that speaks of mans will as being free...not one verse that uses "free will" as it speaks to mans will by nature, Romans 6 is as close as I could come scripturally to show mans slavish bondage to sin.
I went to wiki to show the philosophical carnal origins of such an idea. That is where it comes from, I do not by into it. I do not think anyone at all can acts contrary to their nature ius what that philosophy would call for.;
jer13:
Jeremiah 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Thank you for your friendly interaction. I'm quite certain that we will not solve this issue anytime soon. It has been a pleasure discussing these issues with you, my friend.

Okay we interacted in a friendly way. The time might come when we agree a bit more.

 

[Iconoclast]

Acts of the Apostles 16:31 --Believe is a verb and it is an imperative.

yes, believers believe and continue on in a state of believing.We agree that believers believe. We disagree over the source of the believing as per the OP and verse 13 of eph1.

 

[Yeshua1]

yes, believers believe and continue on in a state of believing.We agree that believers believe. We disagree over the source of the believing as per the OP and verse 13 of eph1.

We believe because God chose us to be saved in Christ, not die to us believing and then God choosing us in Christ...

 

[JonShaff]

yes, believers believe

So, we have always been believers? Not quite following, my brother.

Ephesians 1:13--...When you believed...you were...

Help me understand, my friend.

 

[Yeshua1]

So, we have always been believers? Not quite following, my brother.

Ephesians 1:13--...When you believed...you were...

Help me understand, my friend.

We believed in Jesus due to the Father believing in us first!

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,

It would be futile to try and change my beliefs about this verse;

I agree 100% MB. Only the Spirit of God can change anyone's beliefs;jn3
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I admit God has chosen us just as this verse says and this is what I believe of His choosing. It's explained in this passage.

I am glad we can find some common ground.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I agree with this also;
14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

It seems to me that Calvinist may believe that this predestination in Eph.1:4 has an effect on men that causes men to become saved. I believe men come to Christ because they are drawn. predestination is not that which draws men.

Cals believe it happens as outlined in Romans8:29-39. The Spirit draws those foreknown by God. Once drawn they are being constantly sanctified unto glorification on the last day.

What happened when Christ was lifted up was that Him being lifted up drew all men unto Him.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

yes I agree....ALL KINDS OF MEN, not the jew only, but those scattered worldwide;

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Not just a particular few but everyone is drawn. Not just Calvinist or the so called elect few

I do not believe there will be any person who was not elected in heaven. The multitude of persons is already chosen.

I do not believe men are elected to Salvation but drawn to it.

I believe they are both elected and drawn.

Salvation is all up to God. He draws us. His Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel convinces us of Him Self. This convincing is how and why we believe unto Salvation.

I believe this also MB, just I believe God does all of it, enabling us to believe.

At this juncture the man either accepts what he has found out by this preaching or rejects it. Yes men do reject Christ. Judas did. most of the Jews still do reject Christ Nicodemus did. when Nicodemus asked Christ how a man can be born again

We differ in part here. You suggest man is in neutral, but can go either way.
I believe man resists God all the time unless and until God draws him savingly to jesus giving a new heart.

IMHO It is ridiculous to assume man has no choice in his Salvation

Sin is the problem, not theology. Men are haters and rebels against God

To say we have no choice can be found no where is scripture

We have the ability to choose that is in scripture. A will that is free from sin is not found in scripture.

To say we are elect confuses our choosing with the Jewish elect. We have not replace the Jews nor will we ever.
.

this is a big issue.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Salvation is as easy as taking your next breath. We just have to receive the story of Christ as truth.
Yes it's that simple. Some call it easy believe ism.
Some believe we have to work for it. Some believe we have to work to keep it. Some believe they don't even have to believe it's automatic.
MB...

another big conversation

 

[Iconoclast]

So, we have always been believers? Not quite following, my brother.

Ephesians 1:13--...When you believed...you were...

Help me understand, my friend.

Eph2:!-4 No born by nature children of wrath ,unbelievers, But God,vs 4...enables us to believe. We repent and believe the gospel, we find out it was God working in us. God does not repent, we do.

 

[JonShaff]

We believed in Jesus due to the Father believing in us first!

That's an interesting thought here.

 

[The Biblicist]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

I certainly do not dispute the frame of time doctrine you have conveyed clearly. However, what I dispute is what is stated to be cause versus what is stated to be consequence in this passage of which Dr. Flowers completely ignores and corrupts by his video.

I believe Paul is describing cause versus consequence relationships. The cause precedes OUR TIME and thus OUR ACTIONS which are consequences of God's actions prior to our time. For example, we are chosen in him "before the foundation of the world" thus before our existence or anything we have done, do, or will do.

The stated purpose for this BEFORE OUR TIME placement in Christ is that "we might be holy" which again refers to purpose yet unfulfilled prior to our existence which will be carried out in time.

Dr. Flowers reverses this cause consequence order and his theory would demand it to read "because we are (present time) holy in him by faith". But that is not Paul's doctrine here. He places the cause "before" our existence which has for its purpose to be carried out some time future from the foundation of the earth our confirmation in holiness.

So, the issue is not a time perspective, but a cause and consequence perspective in relationship to our existence.

 

[The Biblicist]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

Dr. Flowers says this is about "when" and "How" we become in Christ. Most certainly he is right thus far. He skips all the way down to verses 12-14 to provide his answer. But does Paul start at verses 12-14 in providing his answer? No! He starts at verse 4 in providing an explanation when and how a person becomes "in him." In other words, Paul starts with God's action and God's purpose and God's implementations (predestination, etc.) "before" our existence to explain how we are "in him." Why? Because Paul believes our actions are the consequences of God's purpose carried by God's design rather than our responses and actions being the cause for becoming in Christ.

Hence, purpose precedes and explains predestination which explains our coming to faith in keeping with the very order of thoughts given in the text by Paul. Dr. Flower's explanation would require reversing not only the order in which we find Ephesians 1:4-14, but most importantly would require reversing the stated cause and effect. For example, the stated cause for being "chosen in him before" is "that we might be" rather than we were "chosen in him before " because of "what we are" as Dr. Flowers thinking demands. He reverses the cause and effects.

 

[The Biblicist]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

When and how do we become "in Christ"? Dr. Flowers answers that it is at the point of faith and that is why he hops all the way down to verses 12-14. He says that verses 4-11 merely explain the security of those who become "in Christ" by faith. But is that what the text teaches or even says? No!

Paul has us "in him" long "before" we ever excise faith not according to our actions but according to God's actions - Eph. 1:4. So, even you and Dr. Flowers must admit that in some sense we were placed "in him" by Divine choice "before the world began" meaning before our existence. Paul's continuing explanation is that he is referring to God's eternal will of purpose which he works out after "the foundation of the world" during our existence. However, we are already "in him" by divine purpose prior to faith.

So, how does one come to exercise such faith to become in him? I believe Paul provides that explanation in a very logical and orderly way in the verses 4b-11 as again the actions by God rather than the actions by you or me. The doctrine of foreseen faith is the doctrine of a rubber stamp that merely says God knows in advance what we will do and therefore picks us because we first picked him. However, that explanation does not explain how faith is not inherent in the nature of man (Jn. 6:44a "no man can come to me") except by divine intervention ("except the Father draw him" making God "the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2) rather than something God merely foresaw as a bystander. Again, the foreseen faith theory is first a denial of divine cause with human effect, and then a reversal of cause and effect.

So, how do we become "in him" We are first "chosen in him" which is the stated cause "that we MIGHT BE holy and without blame". What does it mean to be "holy and without blame"? It means that divine purpose is the cause for "setting us apart unto him so that we are like him in moral character." What is the initial action by us that sets us apart unto him - repentance and faith. So, Paul is saying we are "chosen in him before the world began in order that we might repent and beleive in him and become like him." The cause for this is found in God before the world began, the consequence is repentance and faith and a following life that reflects God's character. Then, Paul procedes how God's purpose is obtained after the foundation of the world in our time and space (vv. 5-11) so that the conclusion is repentance in faith (vv. 12-14).

However, in time and space we are first "created in Christ Jesus" which is the creation of faith in Christ - Eph. 2:1-10 as "faith" is inclusive of this work of God or being "saved by grace through faith" which is "not of ourselves, it is a gift of God" because "we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS." To claim that "faith" is not part of this work of God, not part of "by grace are ye saved" repudiates Paul's claim that "faith is OF GRACE" (Rom.4:16) and God is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2) and it is a gift (Philip. 1:29).

In short, we are first "in him" by elective purpose (Eph. 1:4) ultimately manifested by faith in the gospel followed by good works (which is the stated purpose of election -1:4b) but that faith is the consequence of the internal creative work of God (Eph. 2:8-10).

Thus, we are in him:

1. By divine election - ETERNAL PURPOSE - covenant union
2. By divine creation - REGENERATION - spiritual union
3. By divine faith - JUSTIFICATION - legal union

 

[The Biblicist]

It is clear that I do not believe this passage is teaching that we are predestinated to salvation (as defined by Calvinism); so, I thought it would be good if I shared my opinion as to what I believe this passage is teaching.

Based upon the Bible's position on the free will of man, I can only conclude that this passage is teaching something other than predestination or unconditional election. I believe that we are most certainly predestined, just not for salvation. We (all of God's children) are predestined to holiness. Once we accept God's free gift of salvation, we are predestined, chosen in Him before the foundations of the world, to be holy and blameless as children of God.

Ephesians 2:10 adds that we were predestined, as a child of God, to good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (KJV).

II Thessalonians 2:13 clearly tells us that our election to salvation is contingent upon our "belief of the truth." "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (KJV).

I Peter 1:2 teaches that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. Foreknowledge of what? Foreknowledge of our belief of the truth. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (KJV).

Lets examine Dr. Flowers airplaine analogy. He admits the point of departure and destination are fixed. However, he claims that the persons boarding that plane are not fixed.

QUESTION: Does boarding require the previous purchase of tickets?

QUESTION: Does the airline restrict the number of tickets issued in keeping with the number of seats available in the plane? Or are both the tickets and seats restricted or fixed as much as the point of departure and arrival?

In theological terms does every human being have ability to come to Christ? Jesus says they don't - "no man can come to me" - Jn. 6:44a. Hence, no man is willing to buy the ticket as no man has ability to buy the ticket. HOW are tickets bought then? OR how do people become willing to come to Christ then? Answer "except the Father draw him".

QUESTION: Is the drawing work of God limited and fixed as much as the departure place and destination place of the plane, as much as the seats in the plane and tickets for the plane?

ANSWER: Yes! According to the scriptural explanation provided by Jesus "ALL" who are thus drawn/taught (Jn. 6:45a) are limited to "all thy children" (Isa. 54:13) within the new covenant of God (Jer. 31:33-34/Heb. 8:10-13) as these are the prohets he cites to explain what he means by "draw". This "all" are effectually brought to faith "from the least dof them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34) because of the effectual INTERNAL teaching by God in all of them (Jer. 31:33). Furthmore, Jesus provides examples of those never given unto the Son by the Father (Jn. 6:36) and never drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65).

 

[The Biblicist]

Below is perhaps the clearest commentary on this passage that I have read in a while. With the multitude of "whosoever will" passages in the Word of God, when one comes across a "seeming paradox," that passage much be interpreted in light of other scriptures. When comparing the whole of the Word of God, it is sometimes beneficial to determine what the text is not saying before we can understand what it is saying. The Word of God never contradicts itself.

It is my opinion that there are far more passages that would refute the teaching of predestination (regarding salvation) than there are that would "seemingly" support it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

There is a mystery here that centers in the fact that we are finite and God is infinite. We are creatures of time; God inhabits eternity. We express our mode of being in three tenses of time—I was, I am, I will be. God expresses His mode of being in the eternal present—I am, I am, I am. Thus Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I was"; Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). He was claiming eternity of being and coexistence with the Father, and His enemies considered His statement blasphemous.


We are hindered in experience and understanding by the limited nature of our being. As finite creatures we live in the here and now and can deal with only one thing at a time. Life is presented to us, so to speak, in tiny little packages. We live it moment by moment. The future lies before us, but we cannot experience it until it touches us in a fleeting moment of the present before it recedes instantly into the past. We can anticipate the future and recall the past, but we live in the flickering moment we call the present. In God's mind, however, the past, present, and future are swallowed up in the all-embracing present.


Thus when we read that we were chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world," we must realize that the Holy Spirit has stated the issue from our perspective. Since God lives in the present tense, there is to Him no time difference between the moment He chose me and the moment I chose Him. The perception of time difference is ours alone. From the standpoint of God's eternal present tense, both acts are simultaneous.

Let's examine the Baseball analogy by Dr. Flowers. He says one coach compels certain players to be on his team while the other coach simply offers whoseover will to be on his team.

This is a highly flawed analogy for many reasons. First, there is no explanation of what is mean by "compel". I imagine Dr. Flowers means "force" against their will. Of course, that is not what his opponets believe nor I believe the Bible teaches by "compel." We believe that "compel" or "draw" refers to wholly an INTERNAL work of God that produces a willing heart and only those are the only sinners who become willing as Jesus plainly says "no man can come to me" as all men are equally unwilling.

So, the truth is that there are no players who are willing to join either team. The only coach that ends up with players willing to play for him is the coach that compelled them to join.

 

[InTheLight]

Let's examine the Baseball analogy by Dr. Flowers. He says one coach compels certain players to be on his team while the other coach simply offers whoseover will to be on his team.

This is a highly flawed analogy for many reasons. First, there is no explanation of what is mean by "compel". I imagine Dr. Flowers means "force" against their will.

No imagining necessary. Dr. Flowers clearly says, "one coach pre-selects or compels players to be on his team."

So, the truth is that there are no players who are willing to join either team. The only coach that ends up with players willing to play for him is the coach that compelled them to join.

Dr. Flowers says the other coach invites player to volunteer to be on his team.

So, one coach, coach Calvin, pre-selects players and the other coach invites players to join the team.

You have misrepresented his analogy.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[The Biblicist]

Dr. Flowers says the other coach invites player to volunteer to be on his team.

So, one coach, coach Calvin, pre-selects players and the other coach invites players to join the team.

You have misrepresented his analogy.

You misunderstood me. Notice I took his analogy and applied it along scriptural lines first, then I applied it in keeping with scripture. The consequence would be there would be no one willing to join his team because in scripture "whosoever will" does not exist apart from the "exception" clause in Jn. 6:44 which verse 45 and scriptures cited in the verse define drawing as "effectual" in producing willingness.

 

[InTheLight]

You misunderstood me. Notice I took his analogy and applied it along scriptural lines first, then I applied it in keeping with scripture. The consequence would be there would be no one willing to join his team because in scripture "whosoever will" does not exist apart from the "exception" clause in Jn. 6:44 which verse 45 and scriptures cited in the verse define drawing as "effectual" in producing willingness.

Understand you clearly and you have misrepresented his analogy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[The Biblicist]

Understand you clearly and you have misrepresented his analogy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

No, I have not. I have just shown the logical error of it when the analogy is put to scripture. His analogy is based on FREE WILL when scripture teaches FREE AGENCY and his analogy is based upon DRAW defined as mere enablement for FREE WILL rather than effectual coming. I have simply put on the display the weakness of his analogy. In other words, his analogy does not hold up to scripture and that is his aim.

 

[The Biblicist]

Understand you clearly and you have misrepresented his analogy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Don't you believe that his purpose of the analogy is to present and defend his view of scripture? Yes! If you look at the context of what I said, I address his misunderstanding of scripture which shows his design for the analogy of the second coach is flawed. I simply pointed out that flaw.

I assumed the reader listen to his analogy and his application.

 

[The Biblicist]

Understand you clearly and you have misrepresented his analogy.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

One reason I stopped participating in this forum is because debaters want to quibble over lesser issues as a tactic to avoid dealing with the brunt of evidence found in post. That is precisely what you are doing with my post. In my post, I went to the heart of the error of his analogy, and that is, it does not conform to the Scriptural understanding that he embraces.

 

[InTheLight]

Don't you believe that his purpose of the analogy is to present and defend his view of scripture? Yes! If you look at the context of what I said, I address his misunderstanding of scripture which shows his design for the analogy of the second coach is flawed. I simply pointed out that flaw.

Yep, you misrepresented his analogy. He said the second coach "invited" players. That can be considered analogous to the Holy Spirit "drawing" people.

I assumed the reader listen to his analogy and his application.

So did I.



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