EPH1:1-14....what is says/ what it does not say!

[MB]

In John 6:37-39 Jesus plainly tells us who it is that are WILLING to come to Christ in faith and that is "ALL" whom the Father has given him. This act of giving preceded the incarnation as Jesus explicitly states that his reason for coming down from heaven is that he knew the Father's will in this matter prior to the incarnation because the father had prevous to the incarnation already "given" (perfect tense - v. 39) such to him.

First of all it does not say they were given Him before the foundation of the world. That a saying by Paul in ehp You and I did not exist at that time. By your reckoning Judas would be saved. I do not for a moment believe in Calvinism. Not to mention everyone is raised at the last day who is not caught up already..

Hence, in verse 40, those WILLING do come to him and they are those given by the Father in verses 37-39. In contrast, those in verse 36 saw him and were not willing to come to him in faith and Jesus plainly tells them that is proof they are not part of those the Father gave him because ALL the father gives him do come to him (vv. 37-39). So, all who are WILLING are those whom the Father previous to their willingness, previous to the incarnation had already been given to the Son. Hence, those in verse 40 who are willing were part of the same "ALL" given to the Son before the incarnation thus before they became willing in point of time. That willingess in point of time is due to the INTERNAL EFFECTUAL drawing/teaching work by the Father (Jn. 6:44-45).

If the drawing were effectual then I would have come the first time I was drawn. Many are drawn but only a few come. I've witnessed to men who were obviously drawn and still did not come to Christ. I've had some listen to the gospel intently and would shoved others aside just to hear what I was saying. I believe this is what is wrong with Calvinism. They wish to make it so complicated men can not do what's needed for Salvation. Christ does not force Him Self on anyone.

Salvation isn't so complicated as you have made it. It's simple, it's easy. All we have to do is believe in Christ. We don't have to worry about whether or not we have been chosen before we existed

Hence, the willing are those given, those drawn by the Father. The unwilling (v. 37, 64) were never given to the Father before the incarnation (v. 37) and never drawn by the Father (v. 64-65

I could not have been given before I existed. Only God is eternal and can grant life.
I freely admit that I haven't a clue what the Bible means by the term "before the foundation" And I'm not the least bit sure you do either. You assume you existed before you did. This isn't logical it's speculation.
Can you can prove you existed before the foundation of the world?
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all it does not say they were given Him before the foundation of the world.

If you will look at my literal language I said they were "all" given to him prior to the incarnation of Christ as that is indisputable because Jesus explicitly states that the reason for his coming into the world (v. 38) is to save those whom the Father had already "given" (perfect tense - v. 39) him prior to the incarnation. I DID NOT SAY THAT "ALL" COMING to Christ occurred before the foundation of the world.

You and I did not exist at the time the Father gave "ALL" that shall come to him existed as we did not exist prior to the incarnation.

Furthermore, the only time prior to the incaranation that such a giving point could occur is "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4) simply because he cannot give anyone he first does not choose to give and so choice precedes giving and givng preceded the incarnation. The only time Paul points to prior to the incarnation is in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" when they were chosen in him.

If the drawing were effectual then I would have come the first time I was drawn.

You apparently did not read or read but did not understand how Jeremiah explained the teaching act of God which is writing the law of God on your heart, thus transforming your heart from a hating resisting heart to a loving submissive heart to God and his law (Jer. 3:31-33-34). Jeremiah 31:33-34 is one of the prophetic sources referred to by Jesus in John 6:45 to explain what drawing means. Second, your interpretation of a previous drawings is not according to Jeremiah's explanation of what it is but according to your explanation of what it is - because - Jeremiah's explanation is complete transformation rather than some non-effectual attempt - which is your explanation. Read Jeremiah 31:33-34 or as it is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-13 and see if your view can be found??

Many are drawn but only a few come.

wrong as that is never said in scripture. What the scripture says is many are CALLED but few chosen. Everyone who hears the gospel with the external ear is being called by men to come to Christ but the work of the Father is INTERNAL and that is explicited stated by Jeremiah 31:33 - read it!

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all it does not say they were given Him before the foundation of the world. That a saying by Paul in ehp You and I did not exist at that time. By your reckoning Judas would be saved. I do not for a moment believe in Calvinism. Not to mention everyone is raised at the last day who is not caught up already..

If the drawing were effectual then I would have come the first time I was drawn. Many are drawn but only a few come. I've witnessed to men who were obviously drawn and still did not come to Christ. I've had some listen to the gospel intently and would shoved others aside just to hear what I was saying. I believe this is what is wrong with Calvinism. They wish to make it so complicated men can not do what's needed for Salvation. Christ does not force Him Self on anyone.

Salvation isn't so complicated as you have made it. It's simple, it's easy. All we have to do is believe in Christ. We don't have to worry about whether or not we have been chosen before we existed



I could not have been given before I existed. Only God is eternal and can grant life.
I freely admit that I haven't a clue what the Bible means by the term "before the foundation" And I'm not the least bit sure you do either. You assume you existed before you did. This isn't logical it's speculation.
Can you can prove you existed before the foundation of the world?
MB

Just to be clear let me repeat I did not say we existed prior to the incarnation. What I said was the act of God giving us occurred prior to the incarnation and "ALL" he gave at that pre-incarnation time to Christ "shall" come to him in time and space and "OF ALL" he had "given" at that pre-incarnation time "NONE SHALL PERISH." Hence, divine determination of their ultimate salvation preceded not only the coming of Christ to earth but the coming of "all" who do come to him in time and space as immutable.

I only brought in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" because that is when God chose us in Christ" and that is the only time provided before the incarnation that his act of giving could have occurred as he cannot give what he has not yet chosen first to give.

Since we were "chosen IN HIM" before the foundation of the world we had to have been "given to him" at that precise time as being chosen in him is to give them to him.

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all it does not say they were given Him before the foundation of the world.

The Arminian view is that we become "in him" not before the foundation of the world but at the point of faith by our own choosing not by God's choosing. They define God's choosing based on seeing our choosing before we chose. So, even God's choosing does not place us in Christ but only confirms our choice to be in Christ.

However, that is not what Ephesians 1:4 says, It does not say we are in Christ by our own choosing that God foresaw. What it says, is that God chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:3 says nothing about foreknowing faith but that our election was based on God's foreknowledge. However, Paul tells us explicitly what God's foreknowledge is based upon, not foresee events but upon God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28 precedes 8:29).

Let me illustrate it like this. I built my house. Before it was built I knew where every room, every door, every window and every light socket would be placed. Why? Not because I foresaw future choices but because of the blue print in my hand had already determined all of these things. That is precisely what Paul gives as the cause that God "works all things....according to His purpose" (Rom.8:28) and that is the base of knowledge before hand.

If the Arminian view of foreknowledge were correct Paul would have said "God works all things....according to His foreknowledge" but he did not say that because foreknowledge is not the first cause but the consequence of the first cause "purpose".

 

[Iconoclast]

The who so ever believes are those who are saved. It doesn't say what you quoted. There are warnings in scripture for taking away from it and for adding to it.
MB

Hello MB,
I quoted from YLT..It does say what I quoted.;
Ellicotts commentary;
Believeth in.—Better, believeth upon. The preposition is not the same as in the last verse. (Comp. John 1:12.) There the thought was of the Son of Man lifted up, in whom every one who believes and can interpret spiritual truth, ever has eternal life. Here the thought is of the Son of God given for the world, and every one who believes upon, casts his whole being upon Him, and, like Abraham, in will rests all upon God, finds that God has provided Himself a lamb for a burnt-offering instead of human sacrifice or death.

4 And just as Moses lifted-up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up 15 in order that everyone putting-faith in Him may have eternal life.


Disciples literal new testament
God Sent His Son Into The World That All Believing In Him May Have Eternal Life
16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only-born Son, in order that everyone believing in Him may not perish, but may have eternal life. ;

Mounces interlinear:
15 sohina that everyone pas whoho believespisteuō inen himautos may haveechō eternalaiōnios lifezōē.

16 “Forgar this houtōs is how Godtheos lovedagapaō ·ho theho worldkosmos: he gavedidōmi hisho one and onlymonogenēs Sonhyios ·ho that hina everyone pas who believespisteuō ineis himautos should notmē perishapollymi butalla haveechō eternalaiōnios lifezōē.

Now MB...lets say that it says whosoever believes...

That would not change a thing. It will be the same elected sheep on the last day that will be saved,ie...everyone believing.

whosoever will = everyone believing = all of the elect sheep.

If there are whosoever wills, there are whosoever will not's.
There are everyone believing, and everyone continuing in unbelief.

 

[Iconoclast]

Let me give you some overall New Testament context for justifying the idea that Jews during that period limited salvation to Jews alone.

1. When Jesus used a term to describe how a discipline member removed out of the fellowship of the church was to be viewed and treated he described them as a "heathen" man or gentile which were to be treated as unclean by the Jews - Mt. 18:17

2. In John 4 the Samaritan woman stated that Jews have no dealings with Gentiles even to the extent of private theological discussion as Jesus was carrying on with her, and even much more so as she was woman.

3. In John 12 Greeks seeking to have such communion with Christ caused a stir among his disciples.

4. In Acts 1-9 although there is an explicit command to witness to the Gentile world (Acts 1:8) we have no attempt to do so.

5. In Acts 10, Jesus had to repeat a vision THREE TIMES to Paul and still Paul resisted until he was directly rebuked by Christ and told to go.

6. In Acts 10:28 when Peter entered the house of Cornelius his first words were that "it is unlawful" for a Jew to enter a Gentile home or have fellowship with them, but his reason for being there was the previous rebuke he received.

7. In Acts 11 there is no preaching to the Gentiles but Jews only in the cities those going out from the Jerusalem church went through on their way back to their homes in Cyprus and other places in the gentile world.

8. In Acts 15 there is a council called to deal with this very issue whether or not Gentiles could be saved without becoming Jews.

So, there is overwhelming New Testament evidence that Jews did not understand salvation to extend beyond the Jews and this problem extended to Jewish believers in congregations in the Gentile world. This background suffiently provides evidence the possible rendering of "all men" to mean "all kinds/classes of men" and "world" to mean "all races, classes and genders" of mankind when it is being used in a context where a Jew is the speaker or writer and when the audiance consists of lost or saved Jews.

Thanks for this helpful list of verses that shows that Israel did not have the outward focus that God meant for them to have. Many of the parables spoke to this defect also.

 

[Iconoclast]

The who so ever's are those who believe. You should of told us which translation you were using.
For some reason I thought I lost the above post
MB

No problem MB, I should be more careful. Sorry I did not make it clear. I added a few more study helps in my last post. Listen MB, I am not trying to "fight" against you as I would like us to be able to to be in much more. Biblicist is offering solid posts all over the place, and you will find he will offer as much scripture and proofs as is required. Take advantage of this and question him to the max.

 

[Benjamin]

You want me to simultaneously demonstrate why "draw" does not mean "teach" and why "draw" does not mean "effectual coming". You've offered two wildly different definitions of the word draw and are challenging me to prove you wrong. That's a fool's errand and I'm not taking it up. It seems you can't even decide on what the word means. I suggest you look at a dictionary.

I think you can do it, ITL, as long as you can type like 200 wpm of gibberish and flood the subject with 70 posts a day I'm sure you'll get your point across.

 

[Iconoclast]

I thought the ESV was the favored translation of Calvinists because of the addition of the word "before" in Rev. 13:8. I suppose YLT is to be used for John 3:16 and ESV for Rev. 13:8.

I use any and every translation I can ITL. Youngs literal translation seeks to present the word order to reflect the greek text, trying to show where the emphasis is in the text;

Like here;
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during..It does not read as smooth in a normal english reading bible translation.

Nothing is as solid as a biblically trained person reading from the greek text itself, but anything that helps can and should be used.

When you hear someone like TC, or Archangel offer some from the greek, it is not a trick of some kind, but it is to clarify what is taught.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think you can do it, ITL, as long as you can type like 200 wpm of gibberish and flood the subject with 70 posts a day I'm sure you'll get your point across.

We notice that at no time in BB history have you offered anything remotely exegtical to answer any Cal on here Benjamin. Step up if you can and pick out even one substantial post and spare us the carnal philosophical rhetoric and amaze us with your exegetical understanding based on scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

The whole baptistboard pauses waiting for Benjamin to exegete eph1:3-14, or to answer exegetically any portion of any of Biblicists posts......still waiting

 

[Benjamin]

We notice that at no time in BB history have you offered anything remotely exegtical to answer any Cal on here Benjamin. Step up if you can and pick out even one substantial post and spare us the carnal philosophical rhetoric and amaze us with your exegetical understanding based on scripture.

Icon, don't ever tire of that kind of argument? I thought by now you'd come to realize and admit the truth that Calvinism is no more than a philosophical constructed theological system which your presumed exegetical teaching is logically full of holes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In other words, you have no answer Ben.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, don't ever tire of that kind of argument? I thought by now you'd come to realize and admit the truth that Calvinism is no more than a philosophical constructed theological system which your presumed exegetical teaching is logically full of holes.

Hello Benjamin my friend,

If my understanding is full of holes as you suggest, I would have to hold you responsible as you are to be your brother's keeper, and you have failed to offer the biblical correction.to help me
We both agree on Deut 32;4, so you might have to muster up another verse to stem the tide and promote healing. Or...you could help Biblicist in this way as he has offered a buffet of biblical food and proof, which no one, not one has even engaged him in.

 

[Iconoclast]

In other words, you have no answer Ben.

You know SG....he might have an answer but he has been hiding the answer for years.I am pretty sure when he prays he asks for God to effectually work in the hearts of family and friends and draw them savingly and effectually as biblicist has posted, without anyone being able to detect any flaw in his posts.

 

[Benjamin]

We both agree on Deut 32;4, ...

Yawn... if you agreed with me on the clear meaning of Deut 32:4 your whole philosophically constructed system of pre-determinism would fall apart, but I'm glad to see that passage still haunts you.

I would have to hold you responsible as you are to be your brother's keeper, and you have failed to offer the biblical correction.to help me

Consider my work on you there you being "kept".

As per yer Ephesians 1 attempt:

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

 

[MB]

If you will look at my literal language I said they were "all" given to him prior to the incarnation of Christ as that is indisputable because Jesus explicitly states that the reason for his coming into the world (v. 38) is to save those whom the Father had already "given" (perfect tense - v. 39) him prior to the incarnation. I DID NOT SAY THAT "ALL" COMING to Christ occurred before the foundation of the world.

Regardless of how you said it being chosen before the foundation of the world is impossible. We did not exist before the foundation of the world.

You and I did not exist at the time the Father gave "ALL" that shall come to him existed as we did not exist prior to the incarnation.

Furthermore, the only time prior to the incaranation that such a giving point could occur is "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4) simply because he cannot give anyone he first does not choose to give and so choice precedes giving and givng preceded the incarnation. The only time Paul points to prior to the incarnation is in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" when they were chosen in him.

I wasn't in Him before the foundation of the world. Christ chose all men to be saved but not all would be saved because they rejected Him. at this point you will disagree forgetting about Judas. An example

You apparently did not read or read but did not understand how Jeremiah explained the teaching act of God which is writing the law of God on your heart, thus transforming your heart from a hating resisting heart to a loving submissive heart to God and his law (Jer. 3:31-33-34). Jeremiah 31:33-34 is one of the prophetic sources referred to by Jesus in John 6:45 to explain what drawing means.

Wrong completely wrong. There is no such place in God's word according to the reference given by you. Jer.3 is only 25 verses long.

Second, your interpretation of a previous drawings is not according to Jeremiah's explanation of what it is but according to your explanation of what it is - because - Jeremiah's explanation is complete transformation rather than some non-effectual attempt - which is your explanation. Read Jeremiah 31:33-34 or as it is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-13 and see if your view can be found??

I have read Hebrews and it does not say what you claim. You must be confused

wrong as that is never said in scripture. What the scripture says is many are CALLED but few chosen. Everyone who hears the gospel with the external ear is being called by men to come to Christ but the work of the Father is INTERNAL and that is explicited stated by Jeremiah 31:33 - read it!

Just to be clear let me repeat I did not say we existed prior to the incarnation. What I said was the act of God giving us occurred prior to the incarnation and "ALL" he gave at that pre-incarnation time to Christ "shall" come to him in time and space and "OF ALL" he had "given" at that pre-incarnation time "NONE SHALL PERISH." Hence, divine determination of their ultimate salvation preceded not only the coming of Christ to earth but the coming of "all" who do come to him in time and space as immutable.

I only brought in the phrase "before the foundation of the world" because that is when God chose us in Christ" and that is the only time provided before the incarnation that his act of giving could have occurred as he cannot give what he has not yet chosen first to give.

According to whom. We did not exist before the foundation and you'd be hard pressed to prove it from scripture because the word does not say this.
My point is that it seems you are taking scripture out of context.You certainly are lacking in proper references.

Since we were "chosen IN HIM" before the foundation of the world we had to have been "given to him" at that precise time as being chosen in him is to give them to him.

I do not believe that at all. Not only we did not exist we can't be in Him until we are saved. If what you claim is true there is no reason to believe or have faith. There is no reason for our Salvation because we were already in Him to begin with. We were born sinless, those of us who are chosen.
I mean why not it's your explanation of Calvinism. By the way I'm not Arminian my faith did not come out of Calvinism or the catholic church
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

Regardless of how you said it being chosen before the foundation of the world is impossible. We did not exist before the foundation of the world.

Are you denying that in the purpose of God prior to the foundation of the world we were chosen, that is chosen according to purpose? Nothing has to exist before time in order to be purposed by God as it is God's purpose that is the cause of bringing things into time and space. Ephesians 1:4 states the purpose of God, and then Ephesians 1:5-11 deals with working that purpose out in time and space.

I wasn't in Him before the foundation of the world.

That might be true as I don't know if you are a genuine saved person or not or ever will be such.

Jesus explcitly places him with those who never believed "from the beginning" and explicitly said to be a "demon". The only thing God chose him for was to be the "son of perdition" and to fill the office of apostle.

Wrong completely wrong. There is no such place in God's word according to the reference given by you. Jer.3 is only 25 verses long.

Even in the your quotation of my words it does not say "Jer. 3" but Jeremiah "31:33-34. You have the wrong text and that is why you can't find it in Hebrews because it is Jeremiah 31:32-34 that is quoted in hebrews. So, it is not I, but you who are confused because you misread my words.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yawn... if you agreed with me on the clear meaning of Deut 32:4 your whole philosophically constructed system of pre-determinism would fall apart, but I'm glad to see that passage still haunts you.


Consider my work on you there you being "kept".

As per yer Ephesians 1 attempt:

Another typical poor example of trying to proof-text in the Determinist view that disregards that those chosen were chosen “in" the Lord Christ, -our Mediator is plainly in view, but you attempt to reduce the Mediator from a Righteous Judge to a preprogrammed puppet to serve your Determinist doctrines.

The Divine Order of salvation is clearly presented in Eph 1:13, but the Determinist shamefully attempts to distort that view to force fit his systematic theology. To ignore or change the inspired order is false doctrine.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ah, more of those pesky “you”. But that is how “responsibility” logically falls on the “you” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design to act a certain way before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions??? Care to explain “your” logic?

One need only honestly work through the text without his Determinist glasses to see the order of salvation.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Rom 3:21-27 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13 is:

Hear the Gospel —> Believe the Gospel —> Be Sealed with the Spirit.

The Determinist way is to attempt to change the Biblical order and would have to put regeneration before faith for salvation. Such a view is entirely backwards and contrary to God’s judgment which is His way in truth! (Deut 32:4)

Thank you for your response Benjamin!
Glad to see several verses used.
Sorry you think eph 1 starts at verse 13, however. It might be better for you if you read the preceding verses which explain how God has purposed for believers to get into verse 13.

First, we must hear the gospel (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:47; John 20:21; Acts 1:8; Romans 10:14-17).

Secondly, we must believe in Jesus (John 3:16; 6:29; 20:31; Acts 16:30-31; Romans 10:9-10).

Thirdly, at this point we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit or born again (John 3:3-7; Romans 3:21-26; 4:24-5:1; 8:9, 15; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Galatians 3:13-14).

Glad to see we agree with all of this. I knew you are secretly a Calvinist at heart, and it slowly sneaks out....As soon as we dissolve all those philosphical ideas that clog your hearing ears, you will enter the cage stage, and RM will be calling you arrogant and rude also

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,
Thanks for accepting the challenge and questioning Biblicist. It will be quite helpful to many who have the same objections that you hold now. In time when we re-read some of the posts and responses, it will help change from truth to error.