Featured The Elect and Not Are Twins

I marvel at the silliness of the argument that human beings can't "believe certain information" unless infused with magical or mystical power. Human beings can believe anything they are told, regardless of the truth quality of that information (and many do believe "fake news"). Obviously, people can believe anything about Muhammed and Allah and Buddha with no problem... but believe anything good about Jesus? Nope... not humanly possible (according to Calvinists). God told Adam that he should not eat from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL.... it wasn't the tree of the knowledge of ONLY EVIL. We can know both. John 3:19 says that light came into the world, but we loved darkness (indicating an element of choice).

Now the ONLY reason for enduing the choice to believe the gospel with this mystical, majical juju is because it is assumed that God immediately acts on the belief to make the person righteous (to 'save' them) and Calvinists cannot fathom how a person who is lost in sin can have that kind of power over the God of the universe to force him to act according to their will. To them, this diminishes God's sovereignty. And perhaps it would if there were any truth to that assumption. Where the assumption is wrong is in the fact that faith CAUSES God to act to make the person righteous. Faith does no such thing. This is why I say that faith and righteousness have an INDIRECT relationship. Faith merely qualifies a person as a theological descendant of Abraham. It does not make them righteous. Abraham himself was the only person in history who will ever have been made righteous directly for his faith. And there is a good reason for that -- we are all out of saviours who can exchange their righteous state for Abraham's sinful state.

The thing that makes those with faith righteous... the thing that motivates God to make a person righteous... is not the person's faith. The thing that motivates the creator of the universe is His own nature. God promised with a covenant or oath that Abraham's descendants would inherit the righteousness that Abraham was given. The nature of God is that He keeps His promises. God is motivated by His Word to make the descendants of Abraham righteous, just as he promised. When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had (Abraham was the first to hear the gospel, and therefore the first to believe the gospel, and therefore all who believe or have faith in the gospel are his theological descendants) we are qualified as his descendants. God makes us righteous not because of our faith, but because He is keeping his oath to Abraham to bless his descendants.

 

I don't think you're doing that either. I think it's that other poster being extreme.

Unfortunate with a subject like this one has to continually put qualifiers on statements. People many times are talking past each other on this not realizing they're not even on the same page on just how the term "complete free will" is understood by the other. Some times they may agree with each other but don't even know it.

 

If we had completely free will we could choose to be unrepentant & righteous... we could choose to reject God & still have eternal life. But we don’t. Those who reject God ... those who do not believe the gospel... will not have life. We can either choose to believe & have life or we can choose not to believe & remain dead in our trespasses & sin.

As it pertains to salvation we have only 1 choice which leads to life, and only 1 choice which leads to death. We have to other options.

 

7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9

Do those verses say the same thing as the following?

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

 

The reason the Calvin vs Arminius debate never ends is because both views are unscriptural and fail to comprehend the basic mechanics of salvation. Both Calvin & Arminius assume faith is the direct cause of righteousness (salvation). It is not. When their belief systems can’t even get the basic purpose of faith established, let alone agree with scripture on the basic order or sequence, then you know the theology is bankrupt.

Again, neither Calvin nor Arminius gets the basics right, let alone the complexities.

For example, God Himself in Genesis calls it the “tree of the knowledge of good & evil”, yet Calvinists view of man is that he is too depraved to have any knowledge of good. It flies in the face of the most basic scripture.

Calvinism has a prideful view of man, as does Arminianism. Rather than take scripture on its face, and let man be as good and as evil as God Himself states he is, it goes so far out of the way to tell God how great He is and disparage man as if doing so scores them piety points with God. Well God loves man, & God loves truth, so Calvinist extremism doesn’t impress God, it saddens Him.

Nah, I think God had it right with the flood. Kill everyone & start over.

Nah... I get my theology from scripture & prayer alone. I don’t read books about the Bible... I don’t read philosophy... I don’t read Bible commentaries. I read the Bible & only the Bible. I don’t know what “fairness doctrine” is because that is not a term I’ve ever read in scripture.

Fair would be God utterly wiping man from history without a chance of salvation or grace. Grace & forgiveness are not fair... they are enormous mercies on Gods part.

To understand it think through this thought experiment ; take the action of killing a living creature and apply it to several scenarios. Let’s say you kill an ant - this is no great offense. Now let’s say you kill a family’s beloved pet dog... is this the same, better, or worse than killing an ant? Most would say orders of magnitude worse than the ant. How about killing a person? Is this the same, better, or worse than killing a dog? Again, most would agree it’s orders of magnitude worse than killing the dog. So what changed in the 3 scenarios? What changed the severity of the offense was who it was perpetrated against. So let’s say you commit an offense (sin) against An infinite being like God - how evil is that action? The action is infinitely evil because of who God is. The only just punishment for an infinitely evil act is an infinite punishment, and that’s what death & hell are - the just punishment for sin because of who God is, not because of who man is.

You can have the Biblical view of man that he has the knowledge of both good & evil and God will still be infinitely more than finite man. You don’t need to go into error & say man is totally depraved when scripture clearly indicates he isn’t.

Moreover Romans 2 says even unsaved Gentiles who do not know God or His law still have God’s law written on their heart. So how can a man be totally depraved when he has the knowledge of good (and evil) and he has God’s good law written on his heart?

Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

We know from Romans 10 that Deuteronomy 30 is talking about salvation based on faith. It says salvation is s choice God sets before man, and that the choice for salvation is not too difficult for man to make, and that the choice is not made by God in heaven.

 

Yes and I agree with your basic statements above. When I say our will is completely free that is in the context of how you say the choice of life or death we have. But like I said some want to give an unfair treatment on just what complete free will would be. If you have free will you should they be able to do impossible things as in jump 100 feet in the air or things like that they'll say, therefore not a fair criticism, they make.

 

To me, it’s like Peter saying to Jesus “God forbid this shall never happen to you!” And Jesus turning says “get behind me Satan.” So many have seemingly good intentions behind their willful ignorance of scripture... even to say how amazing & sovereign God is, but when in their exuberant support of God they then ignore God, His Word, and His command to choose life or death for ourselves it is not God honoring, but rather honors the enemy. Peter’s thought was also on the sovereignty & supremacy of Jesus, but he refused to understand God’s actual plans & purposes.

 

A new thread bashing God's sovereignty in salvation was started.

Calvin & Arminius were both wrong

No matter how it's sliced, saying that one has natural power to say yes or no to grace is to say that those who say yes do so because they are inherently better than those who say no.

But God was wise to make Jacob and Esau twins. While yet in the womb. Each equally innocent. Neither having done any good or evil. Both conceived of the same act, under the same star, of the same heritage, both with the same nurturing and enviroment. In every way equal and level, and neither being given a choice, God accepted one, and rejected the other.

Accepted, rejected -loved hated, it all eludes to what God said. If not in the womb according to your argument then when?

 

Take some time reading my comments in that thread. You’ll see the reason I say both Calvin & Arminius are wrong is both sssume that faith appropriates righteousness in the you just describe. However, the Bible tells a different story. Biblically, faith does not qualify a person to obtain righteousness, but rather faith qualifies a person for membership in the group “the descendants of Abraham.” Faith does not say yes or no to grace... it says yes or no to human adoption with Abraham as your father. When you have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, you are a spiritual descendant of Abraham and an heir according to God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness he was given for his faith.

So the notion that man’s faith affects or does not affect God’s Grace is irrelevant because interacting with God’s Grace is not a function of faith. Faith merely qualifies us for human adoption under the Father of Many Nations. That is the scope & function & role that faith plays in our salvation.

God promised the descendants of Abraham would inherit Christ’s righteousness. So righteousness is an undeserved gift based on inheritance. God’s motivation for making a person righteous is not their faith - God is motivated by His own promise to Abraham to make Abraham’s descendants inherit the everlasting covenant.

Calvinists seem to think they need a magical, mystical regeneration in order to motivate God’s Grace. Nope. God isn’t motivated by us... He motivates Himself by His own word.

 

Yes it's a false humility. It does look good and sound good to a point but when one takes the wraps off of it they're left with dealing with the ramifications of such a position. To me it seems Calvinists just set them aside by calling them a mystery.

 

I agree. When people (be they Calvinists or Arminianists, or any other ism's or ists you want to think of) say that salvation is a mystery, I like to remind them of Colossians:

Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Colossians 2:2
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.​

 

Well, you seem to have it together here:

But I lose you here:

Which are you? fer or agin?

 

I was quoting the OP I did not say anything concerning:
:"But God was wise to make Jacob and Esau twins. While yet in the womb. Each equally innocent. Neither having done any good or evil. Both conceived of the same act, under the same star, of the same heritage, both with the same nurturing and enviroment. In every way equal and level, and neither being given a choice, God accepted one, and rejected the other."

I was simply asking when , to Aaron as to when he thought this rejection or hate was toward Esau, is all. I quoted him I really didn't give an answer in what you quote, just seeking understanding to Aaron's point of view . Wondering if he could elborate.

 

Blue because grapes don’t have teeth.

It’s actually an axe.

None of those people’s names or doctrines mean anything to me because they aren’t in the Bible. If it’s not a term the Bible uses, I don’t pay much attention to it.

You should read what Paul says about Deuteronomy 30.

Truly my knowledge of Calvinism comes only from Calvinists I have conversations with. But it’s clear they know very little about the mechanics of salvation as they get the basics wrong.

For example, Calvinists say you have to be made righteous and have the power of the Holy Spirit in order to believe the gospel. Yet everything in scripture says righteousness comes after faith. Abraham believed God & it was credited to him as righteousness.

Acts 11:17 (NASB)
"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

Maybe he is an elect? Christ did say we need no other teachers, the Holy Spirit is to teach the elect. As for philosophy ....we are not to get caught up in that, concerning men's precepts. Point is, it sounds like you presume to be an elect and those you point to, you do not know that for sure, just as you do not know if he may himself be an elect of God. God will justify him if he is.

He has not spoken pridefully, that is a good indication. He does not presume to be something ,he is simply glorifying God and His unfathomable wisdom. He does have it right, the scriptures are all we need to know about God, that and His holy Spirit to guide us in understanding His word.

Too many "scholars" and know it alls , Judas was a scholar, just saying. People should reserve judgement, he said nothing wrong except disagree with you, not God.

 

"Gup20,

This, as posted, is completely unbiblical.I have no idea what you are thinking to suggest that man forces God to do anything. That is blasphemous.