Featured Spiritual Death II

Now JonC lets look at your previous statements; Lets see if your musings outside of confessional teaching provides the clarity the who church has missed.

1]Scripture explains what it is to be "spiritually alive"

2]Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) and they will experience a "second death" as hades and death are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

3]BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death".

4]The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.
5]So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

6]I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.

7]We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.

8]You are right that Scripture speaks of natural man as being spiritually dead.

9]But Scripture never even implies a "spiritual death".

10]We are dead (spiritually) before we are made alive in Christ.

11]What I am pointing out as fiction is the myth of a spiritual death (not the state of being spiritually dead, but of dying spiritually). That exists only in tradition.

12]I do not believe that the lost are made "spiritually alive" in order to suffer a "spiritual death".

13]Instead I believe that man is made flesh, not spirit

14]I am not saying that there is not a state of being spiritually dead.

15]God created Adam flesh, not spirit.

16] Likewise we are born flesh, not spirit

17It is very inconsistent because many who hold that idea also believe that the lost are spiritually dead. How can they die spiritually when they were never alive to begin with?

18]The issue is not that natural man is spiritually dead (we do agree here). The issue us that there is no such thing as "spiritual death" (one dying spiritually) in Scripture.

19]The reason that this small distinction is important is that people build entire theological tangents on that small departure from Scripture

20]The problem is that this "Christian mythology" can become a stumbling block to people who are not indoctrinated in a particular tradition.

stay tuned for part2;

 

Hebrews 9:12, 14 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption.
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.


Hebrews 10:5-10, 14, 18-20 So when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.
“Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in.
“Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come – it is written of me in the scroll of the book – to do your will, O God.’”
When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them” (which are offered according to the law),
then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second.
By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus,
by the fresh and living way that he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh...

1 Peter 1:18-21 You know that from your empty way of life inherited from your ancestors you were ransomed – not by perishable things like silver or gold,
but by precious blood like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, namely Christ.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake.
Through him you now trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Here are some selected verses to help us understand that Christ's obedience delighted His Father. And that His physical death was what brought redemption--through His BLOOD...NOT SPIRITUALLY DYING.

 

Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

 

Once again you failed to mention what was the condition of Adams Spirit Soul the non-material part of Adam before the fall. No one is saying he was in Christ before the fall or he was sealed with the spirit before the fall no one said that the teaching is he had a spirit that had a wife not eternal life not life in Christ but a spirit that was alive and he can commune with God was it a spirit acted upon a time or a neighbor is a separate discussion because he did fellowship with God and the natural man cannot really receive the things of God so you have to address that this is a temp to sidestep it this is directly the question you need to answer with your theory and you can't because the only answer given in scripture is in Romans 3 and Romans 5

 

Are you offering this verse to try to support the idea that man is just flesh doesn't have a spirit or soul? If that is the position you defending it explain it in light of the fact that scripture says man has a body and soul or body and spirit.

 

Wasn't all of this addressed in a previous thread?
1) Did Jesus suffer spiritual death ( separation from God )?

"I and [my] Father are one." ( John 10:30 )

" And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." ( John 8:29 ).

" If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." ( John 15:10 )


Here I see that, unlike men, Christ was never separated from the love of His Father.
He always did those things that are pleasing in His sight.
He was never alone.
I know of no Scripture that declares that the Father turned His back on the Son...not one.


2) Did He suffer God's wrath?

If so, then please present Scripture that declares that Christ suffered the wrath of God in the believer's place.




Gentlemen, if something is not declared as so, should you be arguing the "finer points" of that which is not declared?

 

Good grief, is it such a hard thing for everyone to consider that Adam was simply 'innocent' before the fall. I believe a lesson in type is to be found here. He was certainly 'alive' before the fall or he couldn't have died by eating the fruit:

Compare:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2

...with:

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

 

" And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." ( Genesis 1:31 )

" Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, [counting] one by one, to find out the account:
28 which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." ( Ecclesiastes 7:27-29 )

Man became corrupted ( Romans 1:18-32 ), even though he was made upright.

Created "innocent"?
I can agree with that.
Created good?

God says so.

Died to God?
Spiritually, in his affections and desires, yes.

Physically?
Yes.
First it took a while ( 900 years, give or take ), and then our lifespans were reduced to 70-80 years ( Psalms 90:10 ).

 

I suggest being careful here, gentlemen.
We know from Scripture that the Lord walked in the Garden ( Genesis 3:8 ) where He had placed Adam and Eve, and we know from other Scriptures that to know God ( John 17:3 ) is not only to know about Him, but to experience a relationship with Him.

Adam had a relationship with God.
That relationship became forfeit when he disobeyed God, and the events of Romans 1 came about over time, IMO.
The relationship was severed from Adam's end, as I see it.

It can be said that spiritual life is to have that relationship, while spiritual death is to be outside of that relationship.



I can see the reasoning from both sides...but is it enough to declare one side as being heretical ( seeking to divide the body of Christ over )?

 

1) Adam's nature, prior to the first sin, was good and upright ( see Post # 31 ).
2) Adam's conditional relationship with God hinged on his obedience to God's command not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil ( Genesis 2:16-17 ).
3) I agree with the first part, although I do not see, from Scripture, where God's Spirit was ever in Adam.
4) I agree. Everlasting life is a relationship granted by God to an individual ( John 17:2-3 ), and is not merited, because post-Fall, no man can merit anything.
5) I disagree. Please provide the Scriptures which support Adam being "in Christ".

Based on God's word, any man that is "in Christ" is a new creature ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ), and any man that is "in Christ" cannot ever be outside of that relationship ( Romans 8:1-4, John 3:15-16, 1 John 5:11-12 ).

 

I can be persuaded to agree with that.

That much I see for myself in God's word ( Romans 5:12 ).

Again, I see Scripture for that ( Hebrews 9:27 ).

Still more Scripture ( 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 John 5:11-12 ).

Revelation 20:11-15.

Perhaps.
I also see the worth in what is sometimes called, " The Adamic Covenant", which is simply a recognition that God made a covenant with Adam whereby He commanded that Adam not do something, and the penalty if it was done... to eat of the Tree.
Similar to the "Mosaic Covenant", God set forth something ( or a set of somethings ) that was to be obeyed...and mankind failed to obey.

However, I don't necessarily get into declaring theological "covenants" such as "Covenant theologians" do, but I do see the distinctions being made in Scripture.

 

Two more posts and you still can't answer the basic question what do you mean Adam was like us did he have a spirit did he have asoul. what was the condition of his spirit and soul are you saying he had no spirit if there's any heresy here it's all coming from your computer