Spiritual Death II

[Iconoclast]

Now JonC lets look at your previous statements; Lets see if your musings outside of confessional teaching provides the clarity the who church has missed.

1]Scripture explains what it is to be "spiritually alive"

2]Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead" (Matt. 8) and they will experience a "second death" as hades and death are cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20).

3]BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death".

4]The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.
5]So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?

6]I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.

7]We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.

8]You are right that Scripture speaks of natural man as being spiritually dead.

9]But Scripture never even implies a "spiritual death".

10]We are dead (spiritually) before we are made alive in Christ.

11]What I am pointing out as fiction is the myth of a spiritual death (not the state of being spiritually dead, but of dying spiritually). That exists only in tradition.

12]I do not believe that the lost are made "spiritually alive" in order to suffer a "spiritual death".

13]Instead I believe that man is made flesh, not spirit

14]I am not saying that there is not a state of being spiritually dead.

15]God created Adam flesh, not spirit.

16] Likewise we are born flesh, not spirit

17It is very inconsistent because many who hold that idea also believe that the lost are spiritually dead. How can they die spiritually when they were never alive to begin with?

18]The issue is not that natural man is spiritually dead (we do agree here). The issue us that there is no such thing as "spiritual death" (one dying spiritually) in Scripture.

19]The reason that this small distinction is important is that people build entire theological tangents on that small departure from Scripture

20]The problem is that this "Christian mythology" can become a stumbling block to people who are not indoctrinated in a particular tradition.

stay tuned for part2;

 

[JonShaff]

Hebrews 9:12, 14 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption.
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.


Hebrews 10:5-10, 14, 18-20 So when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.
“Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in.
“Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come – it is written of me in the scroll of the book – to do your will, O God.’”
When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them” (which are offered according to the law),
then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second.
By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus,
by the fresh and living way that he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh...

1 Peter 1:18-21 You know that from your empty way of life inherited from your ancestors you were ransomed – not by perishable things like silver or gold,
but by precious blood like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, namely Christ.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake.
Through him you now trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Here are some selected verses to help us understand that Christ's obedience delighted His Father. And that His physical death was what brought redemption--through His BLOOD...NOT SPIRITUALLY DYING.

 

[JonC]

Lol. Your calling it a logical fallacy doesn't make it so. And you've already argued my case. If Christ was on the Cross, He was cursed. And He was cursed for my sin. As you said. That's not a sign of favor. That leaves nothing but wrath.

Ummmm....it is actually a logical fallacy.

That does not mean that your reasoning is flawed. It means that you are not seeing all of the opposing positions (either by choice or ignorance).

I am saying that Jesus becoming a curse for us is not a sign of God's favor. It is also not a sign of God's hatred. You simply committed a logical fallacy in your argument (there are more than two choices because of what you assume the Cross to be).

 

[JonC]

pt3
36]Now go back to Scripture. Is there a passage that describes Adam as being "spiritually alive" and then experiencing a "spiritual death

37] When faced with the choice Adam acted in the flesh (he did his will and sinned) not in the spirit.

38]I was born spiritually dead. I needed a rebirth, not a revival. I was born "not in Christ" and needed Life.

39]So you never actually experienced spiritual death but you were born in the state of being spiritually dead?

40]I am saying that there are no passages that state man was spiritually alive and then died spiritually and now needs to be made spiritually alive again. That is simply not in the Bible.

41] Your theory is not in the Bible yet you (and others here) follow it as if it were gospel

42]Hold on Cowboy. I do not admit spiritual death is a biblical reality.

43]I am saying man is "flesh" and not "spirit".

44]You are saying this means man must have at one time possessed a mythical "spiritual life" that was temporary (not "in Christ").

45]No. I have stated MANY times on this thread that I am not questioning that natural man is spiritually dead. I am saying spiritual death is not in Scripture

46]No. The state of being "spiritually dead" is due to not being "in Christ". Read your Bible.

47]Scripture says Adam was made flesh. Scripture does not say Adam possessed a trmporary "spiritual life".

48]What verse are you pointing to that describes Adam "spiritually alive", "in Christ", or "of the spirit"...and then falling away from Christ, spiritually dying, and becoming no longer "of the spirit"?

49] have no Scripture that denies Scripture does not speak of one dying spiritually?????

50]Why do you believe all of those ideas were left to man to develop rather than explicitly stated in Scripture?

[It seems you are approching gnosticism in how you handle Scripture. Here your claim is essentially that the Bible was meant to be understood not by what it actually states but through what you believe hidden in implication (what you see between the text). Thise we ho take a more "literal" approach to the actual text, in your view, lack understanding because they do not hold these truths hidden beneath the biblical text.]

We are not doing anything with Gnosticism. We are comparing scripture with scripture and understanding revealed truth. You seem to believe this is not possible. You are quite free to hold all the contradictions and errors similar to these 50 confused and contradictory posts

Saying there can't be a state of "spiritual death" without first there being a "spiritual life" is easy. Proving it is another matter.

Were you born spiritually dead? If so, when were you "spiritually alive"?

Saying "in Adam before the Fall" does not count because I say "in Christ" (neither actually experienced by us prior to being saved).

edit: moved post here because it was more appropriate to the topic

 

[JonC]

The most problematic aspect of the doctrine that Adam was created with “spiritual life” and then died spiritually is the following teaching that we shared this spiritual life in such a way that we also died spiritually in Adam and inherited spiritual death.

It is an offensive doctrine because it teaches that there was, in fact, spiritual life to be had “in Adam” prior to Adam’s transgression. Adam, in this context, is essentially as a “life giving spirit” in his “pre-Fall” state.

The doctrine is man-centered, not God-centered and is foreign to Scripture. The ONLY spiritual life is “in Christ”, period. And this is life everlasting because Christ IS that Life.

 

[JonShaff]

Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

 

[Iconoclast]

The most problematic aspect of the doctrine that Adam was created with “spiritual life” and then died spiritually is the following teaching that we shared this spiritual life in such a way that we also died spiritually in Adam and inherited spiritual death.

It is an offensive doctrine because it teaches that there was, in fact, spiritual life to be had “in Adam” prior to Adam’s transgression. Adam, in this context, is essentially as a “life giving spirit” in his “pre-Fall” state.

The doctrine is man-centered, not God-centered and is foreign to Scripture. The ONLY spiritual life is “in Christ”, period. And this is life everlasting because Christ IS that Life.

Once again you failed to mention what was the condition of Adams Spirit Soul the non-material part of Adam before the fall. No one is saying he was in Christ before the fall or he was sealed with the spirit before the fall no one said that the teaching is he had a spirit that had a wife not eternal life not life in Christ but a spirit that was alive and he can commune with God was it a spirit acted upon a time or a neighbor is a separate discussion because he did fellowship with God and the natural man cannot really receive the things of God so you have to address that this is a temp to sidestep it this is directly the question you need to answer with your theory and you can't because the only answer given in scripture is in Romans 3 and Romans 5

 

[Iconoclast]

Hebrews 2:14-15 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil),
and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Are you offering this verse to try to support the idea that man is just flesh doesn't have a spirit or soul? If that is the position you defending it explain it in light of the fact that scripture says man has a body and soul or body and spirit.

 

[Dave G]

I understand your reasoning. My observation, however, is that verses concerning tbe "scapegoat" do not state or prove Jesus suffered wrath. It was symbolic (to the Hebrew people) of their sin's being removed. The scapegoat was released, not slaughtered.

That leaves nothing but wrath.

Wasn't all of this addressed in a previous thread?
1) Did Jesus suffer spiritual death ( separation from God )?

"I and [my] Father are one." ( John 10:30 )

" And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." ( John 8:29 ).

" If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." ( John 15:10 )


Here I see that, unlike men, Christ was never separated from the love of His Father.
He always did those things that are pleasing in His sight.
He was never alone.
I know of no Scripture that declares that the Father turned His back on the Son...not one.


2) Did He suffer God's wrath?

If so, then please present Scripture that declares that Christ suffered the wrath of God in the believer's place.




Gentlemen, if something is not declared as so, should you be arguing the "finer points" of that which is not declared?

 

[kyredneck]

Saying there can't be a state of "spiritual death" without first there being a "spiritual life" is easy. Proving it is another matter.

Were you born spiritually dead? If so, when were you "spiritually alive"?

Saying "in Adam before the Fall" does not count because I say "in Christ" (neither actually experienced by us prior to being saved).

Good grief, is it such a hard thing for everyone to consider that Adam was simply 'innocent' before the fall. I believe a lesson in type is to be found here. He was certainly 'alive' before the fall or he couldn't have died by eating the fruit:

Compare:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2

...with:

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

 

[Dave G]

" And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." ( Genesis 1:31 )

" Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, [counting] one by one, to find out the account:
28 which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." ( Ecclesiastes 7:27-29 )

Man became corrupted ( Romans 1:18-32 ), even though he was made upright.

Created "innocent"?
I can agree with that.
Created good?

God says so.

Died to God?
Spiritually, in his affections and desires, yes.

Physically?
Yes.
First it took a while ( 900 years, give or take ), and then our lifespans were reduced to 70-80 years ( Psalms 90:10 ).

 

[JonC]

Once again you failed to mention what was the condition of Adams Spirit Soul the non-material part of Adam before the fall. No one is saying he was in Christ before the fall or he was sealed with the spirit before the fall no one said that the teaching is he had a spirit that had a wife not eternal life not life in Christ but a spirit that was alive and he can commune with God was it a spirit acted upon a time or a neighbor is a separate discussion because he did fellowship with God and the natural man cannot really receive the things of God so you have to address that this is a temp to sidestep it this is directly the question you need to answer with your theory and you can't because the only answer given in scripture is in Romans 3 and Romans 5

Scripture states Adam was like us (our representative as we are naturally "in Adam"). I see no need to add to Scripture.

 

[JonC]

That spiritual death is fully described as occuring in Adam at the point of sin experiencing spiritual death occurred (separtion from God spiritually), and that state of spiritual death is "passed" to all mankind and that is why the scripture never describes a spiritual death in any of Adam's descendents is because it occurred in Adam and was passed to them. Just that simple.

What is pure mythical thinking, totally oxymoronic is to admit that "spiritual death" exists in all men but there is no cause for that death, meaning there is nothing that caused that death - that is what is mythical and oxymoronic.

Romans 5:12 demands the entrance of "death" with that act of sin and that "death" event is what is spiritual separation is a "spiritual death" and it is "passed" down and that is why all descendent are in that state of spiritual death. So simple, so clear, but your view demands death without any beginning point of death and that is pure mythical.

and here again;
He admits there is "spiritual death" but denies there is any event that cause it..

Here is your error (and, in fact, your heresy when it comes to biblical doctrine).

You seem to believe that man had to have experienced spiritual life in order for a state of being spiritually dead (absent spiritual life) to exist. Not only is this logically absurd but it is biblically wrong.

Spiritual life is not God being present or the removal from God's presence. God and Adam remained in each other's presence (God communicated to Adam, to Cain, to Able, to Noah.....walked with Enoch....etc.). What was damaged was their relationship - man needed forgiveness - NOT for Adam's transgression or from the wages of sin because man WILL die physically. Man needed forgiveness as, because of the Cross, ALL will be resurrected (some to life, some to death) because it is appointed man ONCE to die and then the Judgment.

There is spiritual death without spiritually dying because there is Spiritual Life, which IS Christ Jesus.

Step back from your mythology just for a moment, Iconoclast. Please at least try the exercise. Print out your theology on one page and the corresponding verses on another. Erase every point you have made that are not stated in Scripture. Then, looking at that blank sheet of paper that once held your ideas realize just how far from Scripture itself you have actually wandered.

 

[JonC]

Good grief, is it such a hard thing for everyone to consider that Adam was simply 'innocent' before the fall. I believe a lesson in type is to be found here. He was certainly 'alive' before the fall or he couldn't have died by eating the fruit:

Compare:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2

...with:

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

Exactly. Adam was innocent (he was created "upright"). And Adam sinned. BUT this is very different from assuming that Adam was created like Christ - in possession of Spiritual Life. Had Adam not eaten the fruit then he would not have died (physically).

Here are the obstacles that need to be demonstrated.

1. Adam was created with a nature capable of meriting God’s favor through obedience.
2. Adam was created in a conditional relationship with God.
3. Adam chose of his own free will to disobey God, and by so doing conquered God’s Spirit in him.
4. Spiritual life is not necessarily everlasting life.
5. Adam was “in Christ” and then removed himself from that state.

Some are easy to find adherents. Most Calvinists are pre-Fall Arminians. They do believe Adam's relationship to God was conditional; that his original nature was capable of meriting God's favor; that he possessed an absolutely free will; that "spiritual life" was temporary, etc. The irony is they often appeal to divine immutablity when they click to another topic.

 

[Dave G]

You seem to believe that man had to have experienced spiritual life in order for a state of being spiritually dead (absent spiritual life) to exist. Not only is this logically absurd but it is biblically wrong.

I suggest being careful here, gentlemen.
We know from Scripture that the Lord walked in the Garden ( Genesis 3:8 ) where He had placed Adam and Eve, and we know from other Scriptures that to know God ( John 17:3 ) is not only to know about Him, but to experience a relationship with Him.

Adam had a relationship with God.
That relationship became forfeit when he disobeyed God, and the events of Romans 1 came about over time, IMO.
The relationship was severed from Adam's end, as I see it.

It can be said that spiritual life is to have that relationship, while spiritual death is to be outside of that relationship.



I can see the reasoning from both sides...but is it enough to declare one side as being heretical ( seeking to divide the body of Christ over )?

 

[Dave G]

Here are the obstacles that need to be demonstrated.

1. Adam was created with a nature capable of meriting God’s favor through obedience.
2. Adam was created in a conditional relationship with God.
3. Adam chose of his own free will to disobey God, and by so doing conquered God’s Spirit in him.
4. Spiritual life is not necessarily everlasting life.
5. Adam was “in Christ” and then removed himself from that state.

1) Adam's nature, prior to the first sin, was good and upright ( see Post # 31 ).
2) Adam's conditional relationship with God hinged on his obedience to God's command not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil ( Genesis 2:16-17 ).
3) I agree with the first part, although I do not see, from Scripture, where God's Spirit was ever in Adam.
4) I agree. Everlasting life is a relationship granted by God to an individual ( John 17:2-3 ), and is not merited, because post-Fall, no man can merit anything.
5) I disagree. Please provide the Scriptures which support Adam being "in Christ".

Based on God's word, any man that is "in Christ" is a new creature ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ), and any man that is "in Christ" cannot ever be outside of that relationship ( Romans 8:1-4, John 3:15-16, 1 John 5:11-12 ).

 

[JonC]

1) Adam's nature, prior to the first sin, was good and upright ( see Post # 31 ).
2) Adam's conditional relationship with God hinged on his obedience to God's command not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil ( Genesis 2:16-17 ).
3) I agree with the first part, although I do not see, from Scripture, where God's Spirit was ever in Adam.
4) I agree. Everlasting life is a relationship granted by God to an individual ( John 17:2-3 ), and is not merited, because post-Fall, no man can merit anything.
5) I disagree. Please provide the Scriptures which support Adam being "in Christ".

Based on God's word, any man that is "in Christ" is a new creature ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ), and any man that is "in Christ" cannot ever be outside of that relationship ( Romans 8:1-4, John 3:15-16, 1 John 5:11-12 ).

Actually, those comments were what I disagreed with.

I believe that Adam was created morally innocent (upright) but not "spiritually alive" because I believe there is no spiritual life outside of Christ. I believe that Adam sinned and because of that sin physical death entered the world. Adam (and mankind) is appointed once to die and then the Judgment. Those who receive spiritual life "in Christ" are forgiven. Those who remain outside of Christ will experience the "second death" as Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire.

I think the additions of Adam living in a covenant relationship with God, Adam possessing spiritual life and then dying a spiritual death (if saved then getting spiritual life back again), a spiritual life outside of Christ, etc. to be philosophical human reasoning people use to create a more detailed narrative than Scripture provides.

 

[Dave G]

I believe that Adam was created morally innocent (upright) but not "spiritually alive" because I believe there is no spiritual life outside of Christ.

I can be persuaded to agree with that.

I believe that Adam sinned and because of that sin physical death entered the world.

That much I see for myself in God's word ( Romans 5:12 ).

Adam (and mankind) is appointed once to die and then the Judgment.

Again, I see Scripture for that ( Hebrews 9:27 ).

Those who receive spiritual life "in Christ" are forgiven.

Still more Scripture ( 2 Corinthians 5:17, 1 John 5:11-12 ).

Those who remain outside of Christ will experience the "second death" as Hades and death are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:11-15.

I think the additions of Adam living in a covenant relationship with God, Adam possessing spiritual life and then dying a spiritual death (if saved then getting spiritual life back again), a spiritual life outside of Christ, etc. to be philosophical human reasoning people use to create a more detailed narrative than Scripture provides.

Perhaps.
I also see the worth in what is sometimes called, " The Adamic Covenant", which is simply a recognition that God made a covenant with Adam whereby He commanded that Adam not do something, and the penalty if it was done... to eat of the Tree.
Similar to the "Mosaic Covenant", God set forth something ( or a set of somethings ) that was to be obeyed...and mankind failed to obey.

However, I don't necessarily get into declaring theological "covenants" such as "Covenant theologians" do, but I do see the distinctions being made in Scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Scripture states Adam was like us (our representative as we are naturally "in Adam"). I see no need to add to Scripture.

Two more posts and you still can't answer the basic question what do you mean Adam was like us did he have a spirit did he have asoul. what was the condition of his spirit and soul are you saying he had no spirit if there's any heresy here it's all coming from your computer

 

[JonC]

Two more posts and you still can't answer the basic question what do you mean Adam was like us did he have a spirit did he have asoul. what was the condition of his spirit and soul are you saying he had no spirit if there's any heresy here it's all coming from your computer

I do not understand what part of this you are struggling with @Iconoclast .

What does the Bible state (not what you believe it implies but what does it actually say in the text itself)?

Natural man is "in Adam". He is a representative of natural man. Adam was created a living soul. Guess what? So are we.

Scripture does not say that Adam "had no spirit" in terms of what we would refer to as a human spirit. Scripture does not say that Adam was "alive spiritually and then died spiritually".

But Scripture does say that this spiritual life IS Jesus Christ and IS in Christ.

It would be better for you to simply leave this part of Scripture to "mystery" than it would be to create your own narrative. While it makes perfect sense to many, I can understand that your theology may handicap you to what is actually written.