On Baptism...

Robycop said: "And being "born of water" refers to natural childbirth & the water in the amniotic sac being released; I. E. "Her water broke; the baby's on the way!"


This is a foolish analogy. Everyone is born this way if not you are not human. I love how truth deniers find something, anything to make what they say sound reasonable . First of all water baptism has to do with what took place during Noah's time and has been made part of the New Covenant.

Ephesians 3:25-27
Wives and Husbands

…25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her,( cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,) 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.…
Through the Word as I said which is living and the Miracle maker makes those baptism waters living water.

Leviticus 8:6
Then Moses presented Aaron and his sons and washed them with water.

Leviticus 16:30
because on this day atonement will be made for you to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Acts 22:16

And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on His name.'

1 Corinthians 6:11

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This is not at your physical birth. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is water baptism ,PERIOD! The Waters of the NEW BIRTH.Water birth, all have- pagan and otherwise, how can that cleanse you when all have sinned? It is the baptismal waters of the NEW BIRTH an application in being born again which all who follow Christ are. It is what makes a Christian, when we follow all Christ said.

1 Peter 3:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh

Here it states it is not just a mere bath for putting away the filth of the flesh (soil from when one gets dirty)
but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: it cleanses the conscious toward God.

 

Couple of points from the Great Commission:
In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus told the disciples to "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Jesus did not say that baptism is a requirement for salvation. I believe it is a part of making disciples. Just as circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant, baptism is the sign of the New Covenant.
In Mark 16:16, Jesus said "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has not believed shall be condemned." Jesus placed the emphasis on faith, not baptism. Note that He didn't say "he who does not get baptized is condemned".

In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul was sent to preach the Gospel, not to baptize.

 

There are only two categories you fall under WILLFULLY BLIND or UNINTELLIGENT. Yes Christ said if you are not baptized by water you will not enter the kingdom of God, maybe not in what you quote but He did just the same.


Jesus and Nicodemus John 3:5-6
…4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?” 5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.…

This too puts to rest the assertion of Robycop3 that physical water birth from the womb is what Christ is talking about. To be born again one must have both water and Spirit baptism(IMMERSION, POURING AND/OR SPRINKLING). Like everyone else, you too have been indoctrinated with garbage that you have no pallet for the truth!

Obviously , you can not enter the womb a second time so Christ is clearly speaking of the water baptism which is done in the Holy Spirit , like John the baptist had, (The Holy Spirit). It's precursor is the flood. And all throughout the OT water for preparation and cleansing for God's work was always administered. For the NC it is more than just a bath :
Suffering for Righteousness 1Peter 3:20-22
…20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21And this water symbolizes (THE FLOOD WATER SYMBOLIZES)the baptism that now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the body(LIKE TAKING A BATH DOES, ), but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God(IT IS GREATER THAN JUST TAKING A BATH TO REMOVE SOIL). It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.…
John 3:5
5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

 

You overlooked a third possibility - that I may be right and you may be wrong.
Water baptism wasn't even instituted yet when Jesus met with Nicodemus in John 3. Therefore, He must have meant something else. @robycop3 is absolutely right - the most logical answer is natural birth.

Baptism is a ceremony, much like circumcision is a ceremony. Baptism is an outward representation of an inward reality. That is, baptism represents the inward washing of the Blood of Jesus upon our soul. According to Romans 4:1-11, we are saved by FAITH ALONE. I chose that particular passage because of the parallel between circumcision and baptism.

To add any requirement to salvation other than faith is to reduce it to salvation by works. That would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

"You overlooked a third possibility - that I may be right and you may be wrong"
Yeah if I had no common sense. Now as usual you try to put scripture against scripture as though the scriptures will implode as if God is the author of confusion and the Lord contradicts Himself. No the obvious conclusion is not the water of the delivery through the womb. That is clear in the dialogue with Nicodemus . You are just straight up indoctrinated with a lie that the truth eludes you.

It is clear water baptism is instituted by Christ as necessary, or He would not say so. There are no contradictions Salvation comes by Christ and all He says. So it is clear you are wrong about faith works . The scriptures can not be broken, your interpretation of them simply is. Commonsense reveals that. If 2+2 does not equal 4 then there is something wrong with your method. Since you have no concept of faith and works it is clear you have not the Holy Spirit and is why you divide the Word and say it contradicts itself. The Baptist are a cult . They have no rhyme or reason and distort the truth for personal gain and to bring followers unto themselves NOT CHRIST, Who clearly says:

John 3:5
5Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
THIS FOOLISH COMMENT OF YOURS.
In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus told the disciples to "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Jesus did not say that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Christ is salvation HE IS THE LIVING WORD what HE SAYS is WORDS OF SALVATION . REJECT ONE THING < then you reject all! PERIOD!

Matthew 5:17-19

The Fulfillment of the Law
17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

It is clear you whole doctrine is a bunch of bunk! NO CONTRADICTION just your false interpretation of everything!

 

I had hoped that you were here for an intelligent discussion. However, your arrogance and insulting attitude show that you are more interested in stating your views, and everyone else must be wrong. I've had disagreements on this forum over different issues - even with @robycop3 . However, he (and others) have always been respectful of the views of others even when they do not agree. Having said that, if you have no interest in a real conversation, I have no interest in an argument. I bid you good day, sir.

 

You know, if you do not understand the context of scripture it is best that you not try to interpret it lest you look foolish. The context of John 3 is Jesus' conversation with a Pharisee. They thought they were on their way to heaven because they were children of Abraham. In other words simply being born a Jew.

Being born of the water, as Jesus put it, is a reference to the physical birth Nicodemus thought got him into heaven. Jesus was correcting his faulty theology on that matter. Jesus said you have to have a physical birth and a spiritual birth. Baptism is not in view in this passage. Jesus supports that assertion in v.6 "that which is born of the flesh is flesh.." in other words a physical birth. Also, it was not an analogy, it was literal.

 

That was very insightful, Rev. I'd never thought about that aspect of that conversation. You show how it goes deeper than it looks on the surface. Thanks for sharing.

 

One can have faith in Jesus, not be water baptized, and be saved

One can deny Jesus, been water baptized, and still be lost!

 

Indoctrinated wit a false doctrine. It is clear the Flood and the Ark are the precursor pedal what you want.

 

Pleasssse!

 

No kidding, everyone is born from water. And you know Christ is not talking about the amniotic sac.
Also , YES AS I STATED SOME RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE WATER BAPTISM . However , water baptism MUST BE DONE BECAUSE CHRIST SAID BOTH ARE NECESSARY. PERIOD! And that man would believe everything Christ said , unlike you, and would have too been baptized by water as the SAVIOUR said to.Besides that- the scriptures do not tell all the man's story. But for sure scripture tells us to be baptized by water and Spirit or you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So that man would do both because he believed! If the sign of the Holy Spirit comes upon you then you must do ALL THINGS Commanded or the Holy Spirit will leave you and you will not enter heaven.
And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Do you really think by continually repeating them same lie some how it will make it True? I think people of low IQ should really retire from teaching because upon you will be a greater judgement.
Suffering for Righteousness 1Peter 3:20-22
…20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water. 21And this water symbolize (THE FLOOD WATERS SYMBOLIZE) the baptism that now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.…
Mark1:
8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Acts 22:
14Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear His voice. 15You will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins away, calling on His name.’

The Holy Spirit Received at Ephesus Acts 19:4
…3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they replied. 4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.…

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Being birthed through the amniotic sac IS NOT THE BAPTISMAL WATERS OF REPENTANCE OR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS,PERIOD! you are corrupt. It is clear what water baptism is.
Mark1:
8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Being born is NOT BEING BAPTIZED by water, in that case all pagans were baptized already once for the forgiveness of sins.
YOU ARE A FALSE TEACHER. No pagan was baptized in the baptismal waters of repentance in Jesus Christ when they were born. Some very Creepy people in here. You all need to repent and reject this false doctrine before the thief comes!


And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

POINT: As Christ said you need both WATER and FIRE(Spirit)baptism to enter heaven. since we are all born again in Christ it is clear this is through HIS INSTITUTED LAWS. And NO PAGAN has already had the water baptism of repentance when born from the womb, PERIOD!

And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

Robycop said:
"NOWHERE dis Jesus or any apostle tell someone, "Go & get baptized, then come back to me for salvation."

BODY AND BLOOD SAYS TO THAT:
I never said that and it was never my argument. It is yours. You know full well what I am saying. PRIDE! That is your problem. My argument is if you deny one you reject the other PERIOD!. And amniotic water is not what Christ is talking about.
And my Lord said:John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Also , it does say once the sign of the Holy Spirit is upon you , you need to then be baptized by water.

The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit Acts 10:46-48

…46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.…
Can you withhold the water to baptize these people? (YOU WOULD TRY) So he ORDERED THAT THEY BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS.

BOTTOM LINE BOTH ARE NEEDED!

 

I would ask people who say baptism is a requirement for salvation, what about the Lord's Supper? That is also a commanded sacrament. So say someone is on their deathbed and accepts Christ. One could argue that you could "baptize" them by sprinkling some water on them, but are they also to take the Lord's Supper? What if they are not able to?

No, neither are a requirement for salvation, but both are commanded. That is a clear distinction.

 

Robycop said;

"Again, Jesus saved one whom He KNEW couldn't be baptized. And again, baptism of an unsaved person is merely a bath."


As for this man, are you still talking about the man on the Cross? God is not the author of confusion. Again when Christ's side was pierced both water and blood gushed forth and it began to rain. ALL WERE BAPTIZED BY WATER (THE MAN ON THE CROSS) ALSO, INCLUDING THOSE WHOM THE GRAVES GAVE UP! Obviously I am correct because, Christ said: that unless you be born of water and the Spirit you will not enter the Kingdom of God, PERIOD! No dividing or mincing and dicing. Simply the Word of the Lord! I know Christ is the MIRACLE MAN. NOT MERELY A BATH, if it were I would say then it would not be needed in Salvation, only needed so that one not stink! It is clear it is a command of the Lord even if it is least in your eyes , it is to be taught as great as the Lord is Great!

The Fulfillment of the Law Matthew 5:18-20
…18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the (least )of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.…

 

What do you think this means exactly? Being born of water has nothing to do with baptism.

 

And it is clear that if you do not follow His commands , you are disobedient! He says both water and Spirit baptism are needed or you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. PERIOD! So it is clear you all teach a false doctrine and choose to continue in it. You have NO true faith or Love of Christ you are people who seek to bring people unto yourselves and make yourselves lord over them!
Matthew 7:21-23
A Tree and its Fruit
…21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…

It is clear you do NOT obey His Commands and preach LAWLESSNESS!

The Great Commission Matthew 28:18-20
…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “(All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me). 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to (obey) all that I have (commanded you). And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

 

Actually, it does not say that at all in the sense you are trying to make it. What that is talking about is you must have a physical birth (water). Everyone fulfills that requirement. But then you must have a spiritual birth. The water in John 3 has nothing to do with baptism. It is talking about Spiritual birth.

To say water birth is talking about baptism is poor exegetical work and a perversion of the true interpretation of that passage.