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Featured Apostolic Uniqueness ....Guided into All Truth

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, May 15, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In another thread, there was a disagreement concerning the promise of Jesus.

    Were there promises that were given to the Apostles alone.?

    Or can we just claim them to ourselves?

    I had posted this;

    Iconoclast said: ↑
    The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into All Truth, not us.
    We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.
    No... this is not milk issues, but meat.
    Correct doctrinal root leads to correct spiritual fruit.

    In a previous thread a poster offered this;

    So...what scriptural case can you make if someone asks you this question?
     
    #1 Iconoclast, May 15, 2019
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Here is what I see plainly taught;

    25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}

    being yet present with you.{The Apostles]

    We were not there. Only The Apostles were.


    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

    he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]

    and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    [     you the Apostles]

    Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.

    Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
    Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

    However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.
     
    #2 Iconoclast, May 15, 2019
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jn.15
    26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    This is addressed to the Apostles;
    mk 3:14
    14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

    jn16;
    4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come,     ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

    Again, THE APOSTLES...

    jn16;
    12 I have yet many things     to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
    We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".

    Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT
     
    #3 Iconoclast, May 15, 2019
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Though I agree that these verses give promise to the apostles, is it not true that the same Holy Spirit of Acts 2 is the same Holy Spirit given to all believers?

    As He is “the spirit of truth,” then believers have access to gain understanding and discern the truth of Scriptures.

    Where our Lord spoke directly as a teacher giving oral lessons, believers are to be as Timothy was told in a letter, “study...”

    The question then becomes, “study what?”

    What did Timothy study?
     
    #4 agedman, May 16, 2019
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
    Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

    That being said, the promise given to the Apostles was unique.
    When Jesus promised them they were going to be guided into ALL TRUTH, He was not saying they were going to be instructed on how to build and maintain a computer, or a jet, or solve complex math equations.
    It was a promise that Peter alludes to in 2 pet.1:3
    All things that pertain to life and godliness.

    Their word was so authoratative that John could say he who hears us is of God. 1 jn.4 :6
    He who is of God hears US....[the apostles]
    He that is not of God hearth not us.
    Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.
    Jesus promised the Spirit would bring to their remembrance what they actually heard Jesus preach, and they had been with Him from the beginning.
    The Spirit would show them things to come..

    Only the Apostles were being spoken to.
    There is no verse suggesting that all believers are guided into a truth.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, May 16, 2019
  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    God has spoken to us in these last days through Christ and the apostles.
    What they knew we can know for the most part.

    Problem: Our lives are cluttered with so much of the cares of this world that we have difficulty discerning the truth.
    the whole of the NT is evidence.
     
    #6 HankD, May 16, 2019
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    For the most part I would agree, however, when you stated, “If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.” there occurs a problem.

    The same Holy Spirit abides in us guiding us as it guided them. There Scripture reference was the OT. As they wrote it was of OT principles and practices and how such impacted the Gentile believers. The same as today,

    The question then is ask, did the apostles ever get anything wrong.

    The apostles continued to pour through the Sacred texts at Jerusalem so that their message was accurate. The Scripture and application was not without study and learning.

    Guiding into all truth was not automatic, but learning, of precept upon precept, line upon line brought into the understanding by the Holy Spirit, is as it is to this day.

    The same as all believers should engage in learning at the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    There is no record of the debate, but the results of hours of discussion concerning the gentile ministry of Paul shows that such decision was not automatic and specially endowed.


    However, there Word was authoritative. I am not certain it was more or less than the Godly believer of today. For that believer who is filled with the fullness of God is as the Apostles, yet not eye witnesses.
     
    #7 agedman, May 16, 2019
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  8. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Just wondering if this doctrinal distinction may lead to a questionable doctrine of Scripture.

    Many of the epistles were written by group effort, (e.g 1 Thes. “Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians...”)
    Iconoclast would you deny that Silvanus and Timothy were not “guided by the HS? Would their cheapened oversight by the Spirit bring us to conclude that portions they might have contributed were less than inspired?

    Or for further concern, since Paul was not among those present, perhaps he was not meant to be included.

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, May 16, 2019
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  9. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I usually don't argue with them. I just wait until their "apostle" falls.
     
    #9 Reynolds, May 16, 2019
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    For me, I agree with the quote you present (NOT your rebuttal).

    All spititual truth to which man may arrive is dependent on the Spirit of God.

    I take it (by virtue of this thread) that you disagree. But Scripture is replete with examples - the natural mind is simply not set on spiritual things.

    My knee jerk answer to those who reject the necessity of the Spirit is to assume they are among those in the last days who do not truly know Christ. The Pharisees held a human wisdom that was based on Scripture, but they did not discern spiritual things.

    My reasoned response is to suggest that they rely not on human understanding but start relying on God. Pharisees possessed a human wisdom based on Scripture. Christians are indwelt by the Spirit. We can understand NOTHING spiritual except it be revealed to us by God.

    I do not want to offend, but I am concerned about anyone....including the author of the OP....should he or she place their faith in human understanding absent the Spirit of God. Far too often spiritual maturity is gauged by human wisdom (the Gnostic idea that God opens the mind to accept knowledge rather than a total dependence on God for conformity).

    Our life in Christ is NOT an independence from God - as if God opened our minds to truth and let us go - but a DEPENDENCE upon Him.

    Far too often churches and Christians discount the Spirit. What they fail to realize is the Spirit IS God.
     
    #10 JonC, May 16, 2019
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Actually (to sum it up... perhaps in opposition to the OP) -

    No Spirit, no truth.

    A Spiritless Christian is no Christian at all. They are just theologically educated fools.
     
    #11 JonC, May 16, 2019
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Apostles were given the promise. Who held the pen, who wrote is not the issue. I see no epistle of Silvanus....They were gathered with Paul, looks like a prayer meeting;

    2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
     
    #12 Iconoclast, May 16, 2019
  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    As a Cessationist, I believe God speaks to us through His written word by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that enlightens our mind to God's truth as contained in the written word.
     
    #13 Reformed, May 16, 2019
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No Spirit - no truth.
    Know Spirit - know Truth.
     
    #14 JonC, May 16, 2019
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    [JonC,
    Okay, that is your right to do so.
    `+

    Yes, and that is exactly what I posted, nevertheless, that is not the issue of the OP>

    [QUOTE]I take it (by virtue of this thread) that you disagree. [/QUOTE]

    Then once again you take it wrong and now get ready to battle a strawman
    Here is what I posted in post 5:
    Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
    Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God

    JonC...did you not see this post?
    If you did see it why do you post what you do?

     
    #15 Iconoclast, May 16, 2019
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "JonC

    Let us know when you actually interact with the OP.
    Off topic, misguided ideas...try the actual OP.:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious:Notworthy
     
    #16 Iconoclast, May 16, 2019
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Hey, @Iconoclast , hold up on the "attacks".

    I was answering the OP.

    Insofar as the quote - The Holy Spirit guides us to all spiritual truth. We cannot claim to have arrived at spiritual truth in any other way.- My answer is that it is correct. It seems the OP took the first sentence out of context to try and make a point.

    Most of the promises made to the Apostles apply to us as well. We are also dependent on God. The Spirit brought to the Apostles mind what to write. We are not to be anxious because the Spirit will also guide us in what to say. I have experienced this in witnessing.

    The idea that Scripture does not go beyond the original audience has been used to justify many sins.
     
    #17 JonC, May 17, 2019
  18. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I cannot speak for someone else but all scripture is for our benefit. It is true that parts of scripture apply differently than others. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law, although it is a tutor that points to Christ. When Paul writes that elders should be apt to teach, that may not have direct application to those who are not elders but it still equips the saints with the knowledge of how Good wants things done and what is required of a man who aspires to church office. Of course, if we take scripture in context it will always speak to us the way God intends.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #18 Reformed, May 17, 2019
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, your insight that the Cessationist view is the answer of the thread. We have teachers of God's word, equipped with the aid of their indwelt Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth of God's word. In the 1st Century God provides Prophets and Apostles and their disciples (John Mark, Luke, Jude and perhaps the author of Hebrews), but scripture is closed, nothing should be added or taken away, so God provides teachers. The foundation has been laid, now we are to build on that foundation, with Christ as the corner stone.
     
    #19 Van, May 17, 2019
  20. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    John Calvin, Institutes p. 1008

    "guided by his Spirit into all truth [John 16:13]....although the Lord spake to the twelve apostles, when he said, 'Lo! I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world' (Matthew 28:20); and again, 'I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever: even the Spirit of truth' (John 14:16-17), he made these promises not only to the twelve, but to each of them separately, nay, in like manner, to other disciples whom he already had received or was afterwards to receive."
     
    #20 Jerome, May 17, 2019
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