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"For God SO LOVES the HUMAN RACE..."

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Acts2.21, Jun 17, 2019.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    If Christ died for all sin as you say. Either all will be saved, or, since most perish, his death didn't pay for sin at all, and you are mistaken.
     
    #61 1689Dave, Jun 27, 2019
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, this is a huge assumption that you must address instead of relying on a fallacy.

    Christ died for the sin of man (in toto). All are not saved. There are no "unpaid" sins.
     
    #62 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But sin sends people to hell. And if Jesus paid for all sin as you say, then either you are mistaken or he did not pay for any sins on the cross. Since nearly all perish.
     
    #63 1689Dave, Jun 27, 2019
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And where does that faith come from?
     
    #64 Reformed1689, Jun 27, 2019
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  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, why the focus on Calvin? He did not come up with these doctrines. If Calvin were the only one to teach these, if he truly came up with them, then I MIGHT be inclined to give your logic some merit, but he didn't.
     
    #65 Reformed1689, Jun 27, 2019
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If you cannot or will not address your assumptions there is really nothing to discuss.

    I will leave you with the assurance that sin is no entiry that sends people to Hell.
     
    #66 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing to discuss. If you are right about universal atonement, and all are not saved. Christ did not pay for sin at all.
     
    #67 1689Dave, Jun 27, 2019
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think most focus on Calvin because the Institutes formed the basis of the doctrines. While Beza and the following generation was more important (in the doctrines) than Calvin, it always pointed back to the Institutions.

    Probably more importantly is that the term "Calvinism" had already been attached to the sect by the Lutherans (due to sacramental differences). So the "Doctrines of Grace" came out of the "Calvinist" sect.

    Calvin preferred "Reformed".
     
    #68 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes and I ask you to be honest:

    12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of [Calvin]; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
    13 Is Christ divided? was [Calvin]crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of [Calvin]?

    That is why.

    Then drop his name. Preach the Gospel and baptize believers.
     
    #69 HankD, Jun 27, 2019
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Reformed is much more acceptable to me - no association with a man.
     
    #70 HankD, Jun 27, 2019
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is where you are mistaken, but I think it may be because you cannot see how Christ could have died for human sin in toto except universal salvation be the result.

    If you could understand the opposing view (within Calvinism itself) then an interesting discussion may be had.

    The reason I think this is you have continued to say the same thing (if this then that) without defending the assumptions inherent between the cause and effect. It is poor form and a fallacy.
     
    #71 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But an association with a bunch of men and the RCC...:Biggrin

    Calvin preferred "Reformed" as well.
     
    #72 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I said much more acceptable, not totally acceptable... baby steps
     
    #73 HankD, Jun 27, 2019
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'll be back in a few minutes, I'm BBQing Beef ribs!
     
    #74 HankD, Jun 27, 2019
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Me too.....And I'm the beef (I am at Disneyworld...a taste of Hell on Earth).
     
    #75 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OH NO, what is the temperature?
    Probably very humid as well.
     
    #76 HankD, Jun 27, 2019
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You know most Calvinists only use the word "Calvinist" because we are forced to. I don't "follow Calvin" I follow the Scriptures. I don't call it Calvinism, I call it the Doctrines of Grace.
     
    #77 Reformed1689, Jun 27, 2019
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  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    But they were taught well before Calvin.
     
    #78 Reformed1689, Jun 27, 2019
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that is the necessary logical conclusion of @JonC position. You can (and must) with his position say that Christ must not have died for all sin. But there is no reason to force them to say that he did not die for any sin.
     
    #79 Reformed1689, Jun 27, 2019
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are so many philosophical varients I do not know we can determine another's "logical conclusion" at all. Often things fall apart when we decontextualize other people's views and put then in our own theological context.

    Non-Calvinists do this all the time with the "robot" nonsense.
     
    #80 JonC, Jun 27, 2019
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