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Who Is Drawn by the Father?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Jul 2, 2019.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    But that’s not the same as hell enlarging itself daily. I’ve heard that saying my whole life and it’s not same as those two verses you posted.
     
    #41 SovereignGrace, Jul 5, 2019
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Was Montezuma I (1398-1469), the second Aztec emperor and fifth king of Tenochtitlan, as well as the father of Montezuma II (famous for being the first meso-American king to meet the Spanish explorers) drawn to a Christ he had never heard of? He died before the first Christian reached the Americas, but he was part of "all men without exception".
     
    #42 atpollard, Jul 5, 2019
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  3. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    On the other hand though even such ones have a desire after God albeit perhaps not according to perfect knowledge. It seems Calvinists always hold to the sinner doesn't even have a desire for God or anything in them to seek him. But they do but yes not all have their motives right.
     
    #43 Rockson, Jul 5, 2019
  4. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Active Member

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    Hell enlarges for every time someone dies without Christ. I would say many times daily.
     
    #44 Jesus Saves!, Jul 5, 2019
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    A men That is what I believe.
    MB
     
    #45 MB, Jul 5, 2019
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The interesting thing is Hell is just large enough for all that belong there. No larger or, smaller.
    MB
     
    #46 MB, Jul 5, 2019
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  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How is it that would know such a thing. Are you mind reader ? Why not read it for your self? It has a much more meaningful effect when you do.
    MB
     
    #47 MB, Jul 5, 2019
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So you do not believe God is omniscient?

    If you do, how can you reject that things are predestined to occur exactly as God knows they will occur?
     
    #48 JonC, Jul 5, 2019
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I know you aren't reading it in context because you declared that those two words were the full context and we have demonstrated time and time again they are not.
     
    #49 Reformed1689, Jul 5, 2019
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  10. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    nope , all sinners are destined for hell, unless other arrangements are made

    We do to hell over His dead body
     
    #50 loDebar, Jul 5, 2019
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    That is not what the text is saying my friend. Not at all.

    Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure; And Jerusalem’s splendor, her multitude, her din of revelry and the jubilant within her, descend into it.

    “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

    This is talking about the grave, sheol, not hell.
     
    #51 SovereignGrace, Jul 5, 2019
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  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    you do not consider the purpose of creation and humanity .
     
    #52 loDebar, Jul 6, 2019
  13. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    And as I'm sure you're aware there are various thoughts on just what predestination means. One that it's according to God's foreknowledge not that he directs by determination Person A saved and not B.
     
    #53 Rockson, Jul 6, 2019
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    But anyone can BECOME elect. Otherwise, there's no use for Bibles or worship.
     
    #54 robycop3, Jul 6, 2019
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Peter didn't write that statement of his own volition.

    It'd indeed be a contradiction for God to say He doesn't wish anyone to perish, but then create souls He intended to perish.
     
    #55 robycop3, Jul 6, 2019
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    That's why God provides salvation from hell thru His Son Jesus.
     
    #56 robycop3, Jul 6, 2019
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, not anyone can become elect. They were chosen before the foundation of the world.
     
    #57 Reformed1689, Jul 6, 2019
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yet that is exactly what Scripture tells us that God did. God created men God knew would perish and they serve God's purpose.

    I do not see those passages (you offer Peter and I've offered Paul) as denying the other.

    God can desire none perish while at the same time creating people He knows will perish and this be in accordance with His will.
     
    #58 JonC, Jul 6, 2019
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We also need to consider the idea of God choosing may be anthropomorphic (as it indicates a less than omniscient God...i.e. deciding on the best of two choices). This does not change the idea of people themselves being chosen.
     
    #59 JonC, Jul 6, 2019
  20. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    But then again don't we see that Ephesians 1 states we were chosen "In Christ". It does not say we were chosen to be In Christ. I'd suggest big difference.
     
    #60 Rockson, Jul 6, 2019
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