Double Predestination

As I said, it is a tough pill to swallow but some try to reason their way out of it but defy logic in the process.

 

God created the creation “good” not fallen. By one man sin entered the world, not by God’s creation. That God knew or not is a different topic to the basic point of election/destination.

Devine omniscience is involved in select the elected, not in selecting the condemned. Condemnation is the determination of man, for all humankind has sinned.

How is God responsible for not doing what He does for those of His he purposed?

Am I responsible to answer for not choosing all cars?

Am I responsible for who chooses those I do not?

Active choice of one who is lost would be correct if the selection was based upon other than omniscience and that obligation to select was determined by God.

God is not obligated, for those condemned are not condemned by His choice, nor by His selection process.

I take the principle(s) from such passages as:

“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”​

 

You aren't making any sense.

 

And lets be real here. God used Pharaoh’s wicked heart to keep Israel in bondage through the ten plagues.

God used the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 and 1 Chronicles 5(were these the same incidents spoken by two writers or two separate incidents of God using the Assyrians?) to punish Israel for their idolatry.

 

And yet God ordained the fall by planting the very tree in the Garden that they’d eat of and having the serpent there to trick Eve, who then gave to Adam.

 

I don't see the problem of "double predestination".
But it wasn't all that long ago that I wrestled with it, and quite a bit.

God saves, and God casts into Hell.
Those whom He saves, he chose to that salvation...those He didn't, He damned from all eternity.
Justly.

He sees the end from the beginning.
He knows the hearts and minds.
He knows each and every sin, bad thought, etc.

He decides to save, and no one can say He did it unjustly...no matter if one does or does not understand election.

Yes, I agree that to us as men, it seems callous.
Over the years, I've begun to see it matter-of-fact.
Given the "chance", we would have spit in His face than give up our sins.

That by no means makes me callous and unloving towards the people that I meet...just that I rest in God's choices, and am completely unable to change them.

I need to deal with the fact that most of the people around me are going to Hell...and for good reason.
I'm not going to Hell, and it's only because of His amazing grace.

I deal with it daily, and it's not easy.
I've dealt with that when family members passed away without coming to Christ.
I will deal with that when family and friends pass away in the future.

It's not that I loved them any less than before, but that I have grown to love the Lord far more than them.



I also rest in the fact that he will dry all my tears someday.

 

And many fall into deism, or some sort of deistic belief, and don’t even realize it. If God just sat back and allowed the fall of Adam to occur, that’s deism, or at best, deistic. Ppl want to say God just allows evil to happen by setting back and allowing it to happen. Say hello deism.

 

I once had to come to grips with that...that He could have prevented the Fall of Adam and Eve, if He wouldn't have planted that tree there.
But, He can do as He wills, and if we trip up, then we're at fault...not Him.

 

God also showed election and reprobation in Romans 9:13, before either had done anything good or bad.

 

Precisely. If He didn’t want it to happen all He had to do was not plant the very thing that caused their downfall. But if was God who planted it there, not Satan, Adam, Eve, or an angel, but Almighty God Himself.

 

Nope. You're sadly mistaken. God ordained that mankind would have free will to choose. He did this because he is love. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Well,
If we are going to get "technical", Willis, the thing that caused their downfall was their freedom of choice.

Him setting all the things there, allowing the serpent into the Garden, etc. was not the cause, but the details that led to it.
Allowing Satan in did not make God culpable.

Adam could have chosen not to eat, and Eve could have refused to listen to the serpent.
During the tests, they failed.


As I see it, it's as simple as that.
I would have failed as well, if I were there instead of Adam.

 

Sorry but the sad thing is you took hold of the wrong thing. With all due respect what you needed to come to grips with is that in order to maintain his character of LOVE he couldn't step in and prevent the fall. LOVE allows FREEDOM of choice. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

 

Did God know that Eve would give in to the trickery of the serpent and then Adam would eat when it was handed to him? If yes, then they could not have done otherwise. Yes, they freely chose to rebel, but this was in the confines of God’s omniscience.

It’s like when Dr. James White asked Prof. Leighton Flowers in their Romans 9 debate, “Could Paul have refused?” Prof. Flowers said, “He was able, but not willing.” To which Dr. White said, “If God knew he wasn’t willing, then he could not have refused, right?” Prof. Flowers punted and said to ask William Layne Craig that. Dr. White said he wouldn’t answer it either.

What I’m saying is that the things known by God have to happen. Just like with prophecy. Everything has to happen if God knows they will happen.

 

Wrong. Try again. The fall had to happen. Your deism is showing.

 

Wrong, try again. Your deism is showing.

 

Believe it or not, I agree with you.

But I also see "decree" in the permission of something...
In other words, by allowing Adam and Eve to sin, He neither sponsored it, nor condoned it.
His hands are clean, no matter what we think.

I would have said, "No".

Leighton Flowers does not understand how impossible it is to say "no" to God.

Again, I wouldn't have had any trouble answering.

Definitely, or that isn't according to "Omniscience".

That's how prophecy works, too.
Even if He doesn't actively sponsor something, He still has a say in whether or not it happens.
Even sin ( Genesis 20:6 ).

 

Stop getting worked up, Willis, it's not good for your blood pressure.

We both know God is not only a God of love, but that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known.
He is willing to have people cast into Hell.

That's not just love, it's holiness that demands righteousness and judgment.
It seems that some people only want to see Him for the one "attribute" that they like, instead of how He really is.

 

Here are some of the attributes of God:

Perfect love = 1 John 4:7-8
Perfect hatred = Romans 9:13, Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19.
Perfect holiness = 1 Peter 1:16, the entire Law of Moses, Psalms 145:17.
Perfect judgment = Revelation 20.
Perfect righteousness = Psalms 18:30, Psalms 119:137, Psalms 145:17.

God is not just a God of love.
He also loves, hates, is jealous, is patient, is angry, is kind, is merciful, is willing to deny mercy, is compassionate, is not...and Scripture says all of that.