Double Predestination

[Reformed1689]

But by the very act of Creating, there is a sense of divine volition. God intentionally created those who will perish, and even they serve God's purposes.

As I said, it is a tough pill to swallow but some try to reason their way out of it but defy logic in the process.

 

[JonC]

As I said, it is a tough pill to swallow but some try to reason their way out of it but defy logic in the process.

It is a difficult issue as so much depends on how it is worked out. Calvin, for example, could not bring himself to place divine providence under soteriology (Beza did not hesitate).

I like Jonathan Edwards on the topic because I think it is the strongest position (omniscience being a common presupposition, although some do disagree).

 

[agedman]

A lot (almost all) of this is philosophical.

If God is omniscient then everything is predestined (at a minimum) based on divine omniscience. Everything will unfold as God knew prior to Creation it would unfold.

The question, then, is whether this is based on divine omniscience or divine volition (the ordained or decreed argument).

But by the very act of Creating, there is a sense of divine volition. God intentionally created those who will perish, and even they serve God's purposes.

God created the creation “good” not fallen. By one man sin entered the world, not by God’s creation. That God knew or not is a different topic to the basic point of election/destination.

Devine omniscience is involved in select the elected, not in selecting the condemned. Condemnation is the determination of man, for all humankind has sinned.

What does this have to do with my point. Re-read what I said.

Here is the problem. By not choosing the lost, God makes an active choice to not elect. That is not "the lost just are." They are consciously not elected.

What I am saying is God does elect for non-election by making an active choice to not elect for salvation.

How is God responsible for not doing what He does for those of His he purposed?

Am I responsible to answer for not choosing all cars?

Am I responsible for who chooses those I do not?

Active choice of one who is lost would be correct if the selection was based upon other than omniscience and that obligation to select was determined by God.

God is not obligated, for those condemned are not condemned by His choice, nor by His selection process.

I take the principle(s) from such passages as:

“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”​

 

[Reformed1689]

How is God responsible for not doing what He does for those of His he purposed?

Am I responsible to answer for not choosing all cars?

Am I responsible for who chooses those I do not?

Active choice of one who is lost would be correct if the selection was based upon other than omniscience and that obligation to select was determined by God.

God is not obligated, for those condemned are not condemned by His choice, nor by His selection process.

I take the principle(s) from such passages as:
“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

You aren't making any sense.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am starting this thread as a Calvinist to other Calvinists. All comments are welcome, but the intent is to discuss a division within Calvinism.

Please be respectful of one another. I hate to ask this as it should be self-evident, and hopefully the board is dispositioned to handle a more mature conversation than it has been recently. Let's learn about one another without trying to make enemies of one another.

I believe in the doctrine of "double predestination" - that is, a group of people are predestined to salvation and another group is predestined to perish. I see this as a "decree" by necessity - the necessitu of an omniscient God creating men who would be saved and other men who would perish (Edwardian Calvinism).

Open for discussion.

And lets be real here. God used Pharaoh’s wicked heart to keep Israel in bondage through the ten plagues.

God used the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 and 1 Chronicles 5(were these the same incidents spoken by two writers or two separate incidents of God using the Assyrians?) to punish Israel for their idolatry.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God created the creation “good” not fallen. By one man sin entered the world, not by God’s creation. That God knew or not is a different topic to the basic point of election/destination.

Devine omniscience is involved in select the elected, not in selecting the condemned. Condemnation is the determination of man, for all humankind has sinned.




How is God responsible for not doing what He does for those of His he purposed?

Am I responsible to answer for not choosing all cars?

Am I responsible for who chooses those I do not?

Active choice of one who is lost would be correct if the selection was based upon other than omniscience and that obligation to select was determined by God.

God is not obligated, for those condemned are not condemned by His choice, nor by His selection process.

I take the principle(s) from such passages as:

“Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”​

And yet God ordained the fall by planting the very tree in the Garden that they’d eat of and having the serpent there to trick Eve, who then gave to Adam.

 

[Dave G]

I don't see the problem of "double predestination".
But it wasn't all that long ago that I wrestled with it, and quite a bit.

God saves, and God casts into Hell.
Those whom He saves, he chose to that salvation...those He didn't, He damned from all eternity.
Justly.

He sees the end from the beginning.
He knows the hearts and minds.
He knows each and every sin, bad thought, etc.

He decides to save, and no one can say He did it unjustly...no matter if one does or does not understand election.

Yes, I agree that to us as men, it seems callous.
Over the years, I've begun to see it matter-of-fact.
Given the "chance", we would have spit in His face than give up our sins.

That by no means makes me callous and unloving towards the people that I meet...just that I rest in God's choices, and am completely unable to change them.

I need to deal with the fact that most of the people around me are going to Hell...and for good reason.
I'm not going to Hell, and it's only because of His amazing grace.

I deal with it daily, and it's not easy.
I've dealt with that when family members passed away without coming to Christ.
I will deal with that when family and friends pass away in the future.

It's not that I loved them any less than before, but that I have grown to love the Lord far more than them.



I also rest in the fact that he will dry all my tears someday.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I also believe in the doctrine of reprobation or double-predestination. The idea that God just passed over those not predestined to eternal life lacks convincing biblical support IMHO.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

And many fall into deism, or some sort of deistic belief, and don’t even realize it. If God just sat back and allowed the fall of Adam to occur, that’s deism, or at best, deistic. Ppl want to say God just allows evil to happen by setting back and allowing it to happen. Say hello deism.

 

[Dave G]

And yet God ordained the fall by planting the very tree in the Garden that they’d eat of and having the serpent there to trick Eve, who then gave to Adam.

I once had to come to grips with that...that He could have prevented the Fall of Adam and Eve, if He wouldn't have planted that tree there.
But, He can do as He wills, and if we trip up, then we're at fault...not Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't see the problem.
But it wasn't all that long ago that I wrestled with it, and quite a bit.

God saves, and God casts into Hell.
Those whom He saves, he chose to that salvation...those He didn't, He damned from all eternity.
Justly.

He sees the end from the beginning.
He knows the hearts and minds.
He knows each and every sin, bad thought, etc.

He decides to save, and no one can say He did it unjustly...no matter if one does or does not understand election.

Yes, I agree that to us as men, it seems callous.
Over the years, I've begun to see it matter-of-fact.
Given the "chance", we would have spit in His face than give up our sins.

That by no means makes me callous and unloving towards the people I meet...just that I rest in God's choices, and am completely unable to change them.

I need to deal with the fact that most of the people around me are going to Hell...and for good reason.
I'm not going to Hell, and it's only because of His amazing grace.

I deal with it daily, and it's not easy.
I've dealt with that when family members passed away without coming to Christ.
I will deal with that when family and friends pass away in the future.

It's not that I loved them any less than before, but that I have grown to love the Lord far more than them.



I also rest in the fact that he will dry all my tears someday.

God also showed election and reprobation in Romans 9:13, before either had done anything good or bad.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I once had to come to grips with that...that He could have prevented the Fall of Adam and Eve, if He wouldn't have planted that tree there.
But, He can do as He wills, and if we trip up, then we're at fault...not Him.

Precisely. If He didn’t want it to happen all He had to do was not plant the very thing that caused their downfall. But if was God who planted it there, not Satan, Adam, Eve, or an angel, but Almighty God Himself.

 

[Rockson]

And yet God ordained the fall by planting the very tree in the Garden that they’d eat of and having the serpent there to trick Eve, who then gave to Adam.

Nope. You're sadly mistaken. God ordained that mankind would have free will to choose. He did this because he is love. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Dave G]

If He didn’t want it to happen all He had to do was not plant the very thing that cause their downfall.

Well,
If we are going to get "technical", Willis, the thing that caused their downfall was their freedom of choice.

Him setting all the things there, allowing the serpent into the Garden, etc. was not the cause, but the details that led to it.
Allowing Satan in did not make God culpable.

Adam could have chosen not to eat, and Eve could have refused to listen to the serpent.
During the tests, they failed.


As I see it, it's as simple as that.
I would have failed as well, if I were there instead of Adam.

 

[Rockson]

I once had to come to grips with that...that He could have prevented the Fall of Adam and Eve, if He wouldn't have planted that tree there.

Sorry but the sad thing is you took hold of the wrong thing. With all due respect what you needed to come to grips with is that in order to maintain his character of LOVE he couldn't step in and prevent the fall. LOVE allows FREEDOM of choice. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well,
If we are going to get "technical", Willis, the thing that caused their downfall was their freedom of choice.

Him setting all the things there, allowing the serpent into the Garden, etc. was not the cause, but the details that led to it.
Allowing Satan in did not make God culpable.

Adam could have chosen not to eat, and Eve could have refused to listen to the serpent.

Did God know that Eve would give in to the trickery of the serpent and then Adam would eat when it was handed to him? If yes, then they could not have done otherwise. Yes, they freely chose to rebel, but this was in the confines of God’s omniscience.

It’s like when Dr. James White asked Prof. Leighton Flowers in their Romans 9 debate, “Could Paul have refused?” Prof. Flowers said, “He was able, but not willing.” To which Dr. White said, “If God knew he wasn’t willing, then he could not have refused, right?” Prof. Flowers punted and said to ask William Layne Craig that. Dr. White said he wouldn’t answer it either.

What I’m saying is that the things known by God have to happen. Just like with prophecy. Everything has to happen if God knows they will happen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nope. You're sadly mistaken. God ordained that mankind would have free will to choose. He did this because he is love. Nothing more nothing less.

Wrong. Try again. The fall had to happen. Your deism is showing.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sorry but the sad thing is you took hold of the wrong thing. With all due respect what you needed to come to grips with is that in order to maintain his character of LOVE he couldn't step in and prevent the fall. LOVE allows FREEDOM of choice. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Wrong, try again. Your deism is showing.

 

[Dave G]

Did God know that Eve would give in to the trickery of the serpent and then Adam would eat when it was handed to him? If yes, then they could not have done otherwise. Yes, they freely choose to rebel, but this was in the confines of God’s omniscience.

Believe it or not, I agree with you.

But I also see "decree" in the permission of something...
In other words, by allowing Adam and Eve to sin, He neither sponsored it, nor condoned it.
His hands are clean, no matter what we think.

It’s like when Dr. James White asked Prof. Leighton Flowers in their Romans 9 debate, “Could Paul have refused?”

I would have said, "No".

Prof. Flowers said, “He was able, but not willing.”

Leighton Flowers does not understand how impossible it is to say "no" to God.

To which Dr. White said, “If God knew he wasn’t willing, then he could not have refused, right?” Prof. Flowers punted and said to ask William Layne Craig that. Dr. White said he wouldn’t answer it either.

Again, I wouldn't have had any trouble answering.

What I’m saying is that the things known by God have to happen.

Definitely, or that isn't according to "Omniscience".

Everything has to happen if God knows they will happen.

That's how prophecy works, too.
Even if He doesn't actively sponsor something, He still has a say in whether or not it happens.
Even sin ( Genesis 20:6 ).

 

[Dave G]

Wrong, try again. Your deism is showing.

Stop getting worked up, Willis, it's not good for your blood pressure.

We both know God is not only a God of love, but that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known.
He is willing to have people cast into Hell.

That's not just love, it's holiness that demands righteousness and judgment.
It seems that some people only want to see Him for the one "attribute" that they like, instead of how He really is.

 

[Dave G]

Here are some of the attributes of God:

Perfect love = 1 John 4:7-8
Perfect hatred = Romans 9:13, Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, Proverbs 6:16-19.
Perfect holiness = 1 Peter 1:16, the entire Law of Moses, Psalms 145:17.
Perfect judgment = Revelation 20.
Perfect righteousness = Psalms 18:30, Psalms 119:137, Psalms 145:17.

God is not just a God of love.
He also loves, hates, is jealous, is patient, is angry, is kind, is merciful, is willing to deny mercy, is compassionate, is not...and Scripture says all of that.