Proof Calvinism is the only true doctrine

[MB]

atpollard said;

If you are serious, I will happily meet you for a formal discussion of any part of T.U.L.I.P. except (L) Limited Atonement.
(I do not reject Limited Atonement, but it is a matter that cannot be PROVEN or DISPROVEN from scripture. Only Jesus ultimately knows exactly who he intended to die for, just as only God knows who He "foreknew", and Jesus did not tell us explicitly who that was. So Limited/Unlimited Atonement always becomes an exercise in inference from scripture and pressing parables and allegories ... which is not really "proof".)

I do not see anything in Calvinism that is true. Many say that I just don't understand. I do understand Calvinism I just do not believe any of it. I understand that Calvinism is a man made doctrine not found in scripture. When Calvinist have defended there doctrine some have shown scripture to back it up but when read in context I find the scripture provided do not support what they claim. This is when they tell me I do not understand.
Atpollard Lets start with total depravity.
MB

 

[HankD]

Whether followers of Arius or Calvin we cannot worship in Spirit and in Truth from those things found in a Systematic Theology.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

At best a Systematic Theology is a human work of human opinion.

Not without value but not to be treated as the be all and end all of Truth.
Neither should it (though they do) cause division (or worse) among the brethren.

 

[MB]

Whether followers of Arius or Calvin we cannot worship in Spirit and in Truth from those things found in a Systematic Theology.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

At best a Systematic Theology is a human work of human opinion.

Not without value but not to be treated as the be all and end all of Truth.
Neither should it (though they do) cause division (or worse) among the brethren.

I agree that it is and I have read some on it. While I was in a used book store I bought 5 volumes of Chafer systematic theology/ At the time I bought them for the sole reason that the name Walvoord was on the cover of them. I've read more than a few of John Walvoord's books and found them very informative..I found things in them that I agree with and things I do not agree with. While systematic theology may help a student of theology I quickly became bored with it.
MB

 

[Dave G]

I do not see anything in Calvinism that is true.

I differentiate between what John Calvin taught in the vast body of his teachings, and what I see in Scripture...the "TULIP".

Not having read most of what John Calvin penned in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion" in 1536, and not having read, for the most part, the writings of most prominent "Calvinists" for the past 500 years, I come from a position of having had my understanding almost completely developed by my studies in God's word alone.

After 16 years, I now see all of the "TULIP" as completely true.

Many say that I just don't understand.

I wouldn't say that at all.
I happen to think that you do understand the doctrines, but that you simply reject them...to which you've already admitted in this quote:

I do understand Calvinism I just do not believe any of it.

 

[Dave G]

I understand that Calvinism is a man made doctrine not found in scripture.

To me, you assume that it is.

I've also assumed many things over the course of my 53 years ( 41 as a born-again believer in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God ) as well, only to be proven wrong many times.
For example, I once disagreed with "predestination" and a whole lot more... until I began to see it in my reading of Scripture.

I often hear the charge that "TULIP" is a false set of doctrines not supported in God's word...usually by those who don't believe verses and passages like Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4 and much of the last half of John 6.

John 10:26 comes to mind, as do many others.

When Calvinist have defended there doctrine some have shown scripture to back it up but when read in context I find the scripture provided do not support what they claim.

Then there's really no need for this thread, is there?

As I see it, you're simply re-hashing this subject with the probable intention of presenting what you believe in the face of what @atpollard will present...and there will be no resolution except to part with "we'll have the agree to disagree".

This is when they tell me I do not understand.

With regret, at this point I would say that you do not understand the Scriptures themselves as a whole ( Matthew 4:4 ), not "Calvinism".
Please keep in mind that I have not said that you do not believe the Scriptures... just that you do not seem to understand them properly, and in context with one another.

To me, the "TULIP" comes directly from Scripture.
I can list many passages that, when taken at face value, do indeed show "Total Depravity", for example.

Atpollard Lets start with total depravity.

While I feel competent enough to address this myself, I've not been invited to do so...you've invited @atpollard to respond.
With that said, I'll simply sit back and defer to his gifts in the Spirit and the words of God in order to present the doctrine as it is.

From my perspective, not one doctrine of the "TULIP" is hastily defined or quickly derived from the Bible, but can only be proven through careful study and ( most of all ) belief of the very words and how they all relate to each other.

To put it another way, rightly dividing the word of truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) doesn't come overnight.

May God bless you sir, and may He show you many things;
Both in His word and in the trials of your faith, that will bring praise to Him for His mercy and grace.

 

[atpollard]

Whether followers of Arius or Calvin we cannot worship in Spirit and in Truth from those things found in a Systematic Theology.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

At best a Systematic Theology is a human work of human opinion.

Not without value but not to be treated as the be all and end all of Truth.
Neither should it (though they do) cause division (or worse) among the brethren.

You cannot post those two verses together ... that is Systematic Theology.

 

[atpollard]

I agree that it is and I have read some on it. While I was in a used book store I bought 5 volumes of Chafer systematic theology/ At the time I bought them for the sole reason that the name Walvoord was on the cover of them. I've read more than a few of John Walvoord's books and found them very informative..I found things in them that I agree with and things I do not agree with. While systematic theology may help a student of theology I quickly became bored with it.
MB

I have not forgotten about you or our conversation. I started on a response, but some stupid hurricane heading for Florida keeps distracting me. So I need to ask for a little patience and I WILL respond.

 

[HankD]

You cannot post those two verses together ... that is Systematic Theology.

 

[MB]

I have not forgotten about you or our conversation. I started on a response, but some stupid hurricane heading for Florida keeps distracting me. So I need to ask for a little patience and I WILL respond.

Take all the time you need. I may be gone this week end but I won't know for sure until later this afternoon.
MB

 

[atpollard]

PROLOGUE:

TOPIC: We are (T)otally Incapable of choosing God on our own because sin causes us to always flee from God.

Since this is very well trodden soil, I would prefer to pass on repeating the same old “proof texts”, arguments and counter arguments and approach this from a less travelled direction. Total Inability, the “T” in TULIP, has its roots in the “Adamic curse” and “original sin” and our “sin nature” … and the disagreement is about what these terms mean in our real lives. For this PARTICULAR BAPTIST, they mean that God must save men because men will not choose God.


INTRODUCTION:
I grew up with the expression “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”, which means that children are like their parents. I propose that all human beings are just like our father and mother, Adam and Eve. This is the “original sin” and the “natural man” and the “fallen nature” that scripture and theologians speak of. So let’s take a closer look at the first people and see who we are at our most basic level.


GENESIS 1:


[Genesis 1:26-31 NASB]

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


Three observations from Genesis 1, taken at face value:

1. Man (male and female) was made in the image of God.
   
   
2. Man was created to have “dominion” over the earth.
   
   
3. Man was created “blessed” and “very good”.
   

The “image of God” means we possess personality (knowledge, feelings and a will), morality (the capacity to make moral judgements; a conscience), and spirituality (we are made for communion and to communicate with God)

God decreed that man would have “dominion” over the earth as part of His plan even before the creation of man, so our preeminence in creation and ability to affect the environment is God’s plan for man on earth. Therefore, it is a sin for mankind to not use this dominion responsibly through proper stewardship of the earth.

God’s first act for man after creating him, was to “bless” him, and God’s final appraisal appraisal of his entire creation was that it was “very good” … which precludes any evil at all in it.


From this I offer the following personal observations:

• Adam and Eve are what God created them to be.
  
  
• As beings with “personality, morality and spirituality” they were able to think and possess knowledge (make rational decisions), they had a conscience, and they were in communion with and communication with God.
  
  
• Adam and Eve had no external negative “baggage” from previous generations or a bad childhood to blame on any decisions they made.
  

Therefore, Adam and Eve represent the best that human beings are naturally capable of (morally speaking).


GENESIS 2:


[Genesis 2:8-9 NASB] 8 The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


Observation: It was no accident that the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” was in the garden with the man (Adam); God did it on purpose. Morality is not a choice if there is no opportunity to choose otherwise.

Speculation: God’s plan knew all along about the inability of man to resist temptation and had made provision for “special creations” to one day become “beloved children” through Jesus Christ … God’s ultimate goal from the start.


[Genesis 2:16-17 NASB] 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Observation: Adam is able to reason, has a conscience and is in communion with God (personality, morality, spirituality). God gave Adam a direct and completely unambiguous COMMAND. Adam must have understood the command.


[Genesis 2:25 NASB] 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

Observation: “Nakedness” is about far more than simple nudity, it carries a sense of being totally open and exposed before God and other people. So Adam and Eve being “naked and … not ashamed” indicates they had no sin, nothing to be ashamed of and nothing that needed hiding.

Speculation: Who among us today would be comfortable if everyone knew the real you all of the time without our “social masks”?

 

[atpollard]

GENESIS 3:


[Genesis 3:1 NASB] 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"


Observation: Wherever you go, temptation will find you … even in paradise.

Speculation: Since temptation is unavoidable, the key must be how we deal with it.


[Genesis 3:2-3 NASB] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"


Observation: “or touch it” … Even people that were created “very good” and “blessed” and had never ‘sinned’ still felt it worthwhile to add to the word of God with a “thou shall not” that God did not say.

Speculation: It is innate in all people to “miss the mark” when it comes to understanding the commands of God and we all want to add what makes sense to what scripture actually says. Thus the benefit of an honest challenge to our assumptions and a hard “second” look at scripture.


[Genesis 3:4-5 NASB] 4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


Observation: Temptation calls into question the truthfulness of what God said and promises people what they most desire … to be like God.

Speculation: All men want what the serpent tempted Eve with. We all question the truth of the word of God and we all want to be god of our own lives (or to choose a god of our liking). That is what pre-fall Eve wanted and that is what all post-fall mankind wants in its natural (pre-salvation) state.


[Genesis 3:6 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.


Observation: Here we have the very first recorded exercise of moral free will. Eve knows what God wants, so her conscience is intact, and she is able to reason. Using her 100% untainted free will, Eve chooses to believe God lied to her, directly disobey the command of God, and to rebel against the authority of God by trying to become like God. Adam, who is just as much morally untainted, uses his 100% untainted free will to believe that God personally lied to him (face to face), to disobey the command that God gave him personally, and to join in the rebellion to become gods. We have a 100% record of free will, unfallen human beings choosing to embrace rebellion and reject God.

Speculation: “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”. What Adam and Eve were, we are (only more so). It is innate in human nature to want to be a god and to reject the authority of God Almighty.


[Genesis 3:7 NASB] 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.


Observation: Adam and Eve gained experiential knowledge of sin … they knew what it was to be in rebellion against God. As a result, they lost the freedom to be naked and unashamed (Gen 2:25) and felt the shame that they wanted to hide. They made covering of leaves to attempt to hide their nakedness (guilt and sin), but their covering was inadequate.

Speculation: We are born with an innate urge to sin (to be a god and rebel against God), but something still changes when we sin for ourselves. We are “spiritually dead” in our sins and we have lost that original communion and communication with God that Adam and Eve were born with and is our forfeited birthright as beings created in the image of God. Even in our ignorance, we instinctively attempt to clothe our spiritual nakedness in some sort of man made “religion” that is inadequate to the task. This is part of our natural spiritual “Total Inability”.


[Genesis 3:8 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.


Observation: The often repeated “free will” mantra is that people choose to come to God for forgiveness. Here are two people that have no experiential reason to fear God (God has never harmed them) and the very first opportunity they have to exercise their free will and run to God, they exercise their free will and run and hide instead.

Speculation: How much more reason do we, living today, have to run and hide from the presence of God to hide our far greater sins? This is “Total Inability” of people to choose to come to God for forgiveness because of our human nature.


[Genesis 3:9 NASB] 9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"


Observation: God initiated contact with the people that were trying to hide from Him. God called to a specific person, not a general call to whomever might be listening.

Speculation: God always initiates contact because God must initiate contact; fallen people only want to hide from God. God always calls specific individuals because nobody would respond if they had a choice in the matter.


[Genesis 3:10-12 NASB] 10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." 11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."


Observation: Adam was confronted by God and showed no intention of revealing what he had done, but just made empty excuses rather than confess and repent. God knows what happened (omniscience) and invites Adam to confess his sin. Adam responds in typical fallen human fashion by first blaming others (Eve) and then blaming God (“whom you gave me”) for the sin, but never accepting responsibility for his actions. This is human nature without any “special curse”.

Speculation: What Adam was, we still are. We have no intention of coming out of hiding to face God if we have a choice. God must draw us out individually and confront us with the reality of our sin. We will and do respond just like Adam, by first blaming everyone else and then blaming God for our sins. Adam was “Totally Unable” to do what was right and face God, confess his sin and repent of that sin all under the power of his free will … and we have the exact same “Total Inability” as children of Adam.


[Genesis 3:13 NASB] 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."


Observation: Eve only confronts her sin when forced to confront it by God, and she uses her free will to choose to blame someone else rather than acknowledge, confess, repent and ask forgiveness.

Speculation: Eve is no less “Totally Unable” to do what is right than Adam was. This is the “Total Inability” of the human free will to do what God requires without some external compulsion by God.


[Genesis 3:21 NASB] 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.


Observation: God clothed Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. Human attempts to cover nakedness are always inadequate. Something had to die to cover their nakedness … sin has a blood cost.

Speculation: Only God can cover the shame of our sin and guilt. All human efforts to cover our sin and guilt are “Totally Ineffective”. Only the shedding of blood, from the sacrifice chosen by God, by the hand of God, will cover our sin and guilt … anything and everything we do to “help” God is “Totally Ineffective”.

 

[atpollard]

GENESIS 4:


[Gen 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis.

 

[InTheLight]

Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.

It's part of "Total Inability", just not part of the Holy Bible.

 

[atpollard]

It's part of "Total Inability", just not part of the Holy Bible.

Opinions are like belly buttons ... everyone has one.
Now do you have anything of substance to say?

 

[atpollard]

Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.

It's part of "Total Inability", just not part of the Holy Bible.

[John 15:22 NLT] 22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin.

Did Jesus speak to “them” because God expected that they would listen, or in order to leave them with “no excuse for their sin”?

(See, it is part of the Bible.)
Apology accepted.

 

[Dave G]

It's part of "Total Inability", just not part of the Holy Bible.

Denying it is irrelevant, ITL.
His word stands, no matter what your words say, and no matter how much you resist it.

This is "total inability", right from the words of Jesus Christ Himself, the Word made flesh...
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).

Carefully reading and contemplating the very words should result in a belief of them, by anyone who is His.

 

[MB]

GENESIS 4:


[Gen 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis.

Truthfully i do not see any inability. I suppose I'd have to say that because there is no inability indicated in scripture. There is no inability all of this is speculation and not reality.
I fully expected Romans 3:10 Through 20 would be part of the subject. Never the less none of the scriptures you have given to support your position. It seems as if you are believing in the speculations of men instead of what God's word actually says.One thing you'll have to agree on is the speculation of men cannot save
I admit that man has sin nature yet in spite of that sin nature men do good things as well. Men choose to sin and this alone proves they can recognize good and evil. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge they learned from that both good and evil.

Christ makse an appeal to man's knowledge of good and evil When He said this to the women at the well
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Many have said that we can't ask or will not ask because we simply don't have the ability to ask. If so then why did Christ tell her what is underlined above. You see God is no liar. Every word that comes from His mouth is truth. If this is so then when we learn there is eternal life to be had all we have to do is ask for it. This living water wells up in to everlasting life.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
You might ask then what makes men want to be saved. The answer is conviction of there sins. Which is why all men need to hear the gospel. For me the conviction was so strong all I could think of was to escape it. I was raised in a Christian family and my parents were devout Baptist. and I knew of the only one way to do that and that was to submit to Jesus Christ. So I asked Christ to save me and He did. I asked for forgiveness and He did that too.
I have been told by Calvinist that we can't ask God anything He can't hear us and we can't hear Him. Yet I hear God every time I read His precious word
MB

 

[MB]

Be patient I'll return Tuesday
mb

 

[MB]

GENESIS 4:


[Gen 4:6-7 NASB] 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 "If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."


Observation: God offers a warning to Cain that sin and death are waiting for him if he continues on his present path. Cain has every opportunity to use his free will to obey the warning directly from God and avoid the sin.

Speculation: It is often suggested that the fact that God gives a command must mean that men can obey it. That does not seem true. How can an omniscient God not know how Cain and Abel will end? If the desire of God was to save Abel, then God should have warned Abel to defend himself. Instead God gives a warning to Cain that God must know Cain will not obey. Part of “Total Inability” is that warnings are given to all men not because they can obey, but to leave them without excuse in their guilt for the evil they have already set their heart on.


[Genesis 4:8-10 NASB] 8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.


Observation: Cain ignored God’s warning. The sins of the children were greater than those of the parents. Cain used his free will to murder Abel and lie to God. Once again, God must confront men with their sin since men choose to hide their sins.

Speculation: Like the first generation, all mankind is “Totally Incapable” of choosing to do right, even when warned by God, and will not go to God of their own free will to confess and repent of their sin. God, and only God, confronts men with sin and only God has the ability to draw men to God’s grace.


So there is TOTAL INABILITY presented from the beginning of the story … Genesis.

I see it differently God convicts men of there sins I know that He convicted me while listening to a sermon being preached. In my conviction I had no defense.Nearly every time I heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and He still convicts me when I mess up. Conviction is still about freewill. I could not help noticing that you never mentioned conviction. The drawing of us to God is strong but not impossible to resist and sometimes the drawing comes through conviction.
Above you talk about Adam and his sons and you even say they had an inability to come to God. I see choice is involved Both Adam and Cain chose to go there own way and yet there was no inability because they both Heard God when He approached them. One of the claimed inabilities is hearing. True God chose to speak to them yet they still heard God and chose what they wanted.
Total inability is proven to be false In Genesis. Adam still spoke with God that is ability.You claim they were unable to choose good because they chose Bad. That is not proof they could not choose good Simply total depravity is assumed, speculative, doctrine of man . I'd much rather believe what God says than man.
MB

 

[atpollard]

I see it differently God convicts men of there sins I know that He convicted me while listening to a sermon being preached. In my conviction I had no defense.Nearly every time I heard the gospel, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and He still convicts me when I mess up. Conviction is still about freewill. I could not help noticing that you never mentioned conviction. The drawing of us to God is strong but not impossible to resist and sometimes the drawing comes through conviction.
Above you talk about Adam and his sons and you even say they had an inability to come to God. I see choice is involved Both Adam and Cain chose to go there own way and yet there was no inability because they both Heard God when He approached them. One of the claimed inabilities is hearing. True God chose to speak to them yet they still heard God and chose what they wanted.
Total inability is proven to be false In Genesis. Adam still spoke with God that is ability.You claim they were unable to choose good because they chose Bad. That is not proof they could not choose good Simply total depravity is assumed, speculative, doctrine of man . I'd much rather believe what God says than man.
MB

The classic "non-TULIP" position is John 3:16 with emphasis on "the world" (everyone) and "whosoever believes" (anyone that chooses). Who had more reason to be "whosoever" than Adam, Eve and Cain? But what actually happened. They chose to hide from God rather than run to God with their sin ... God drew them to Himself to confront the sin. They hid or denied the sin rather than confess the sin ... God had to confront them with the fact of their sin. They did not repent of their sin, but doubled down with more sins (Adam blamed God and Cain lied). They chose to ignore both command and warning directly from the lips of God. They were no more capable of doing the right thing without the irresistable draw of God to compel them than we are.

If THEY didn't choose to be "whosoever" by their own choice, then what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?

That is where John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1-10 fit in and start to make a LOT of sense. We WON'T, so God MUST!

Many are CALLED, but few are CHOSEN! (Mat 22:14)