If THEY didn't choose to be "whosoever" by their own choice, then what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?
#4
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If THEY didn't choose to be "whosoever" by their own choice, then what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?
My Parents were both Baptist and taught me the word of God from around 4,or 5 years old. Against my will I had to memorize scripture. I went to church every Sunday. I had roots and no Salvation until I was 14 years old. I truly did not want Salvation simply because I did not want to be a hypocrite. The day I was saved I found I was a hypocrite the thing I hated most. I only pretended to be saved up to that point. When I realized this was true of myself it convicted me so much I had to repent and believe. I asked Christ to save me and I am so grateful for it. Yes I was convinced and yes the Holy Spirit did the convincing I only surrendered. I gave up the fight.The classic "non-TULIP" position is John 3:16 with emphasis on "the world" (everyone) and "whosoever believes" (anyone that chooses). Who had more reason to be "whosoever" than Adam, Eve and Cain? But what actually happened. They chose to hide from God rather than run to God with their sin ... God drew them to Himself to confront the sin. They hid or denied the sin rather than confess the sin ... God had to confront them with the fact of their sin. They did not repent of their sin, but doubled down with more sins (Adam blamed God and Cain lied). They chose to ignore both command and warning directly from the lips of God. They were no more capable of doing the right thing without the irresistable draw of God to compel them than we are.
If THEY didn't choose to be "whosoever" by their own choice, then what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?
That is where John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1-10 fit in and start to make a LOT of sense. We WON'T, so God MUST!
Many are CALLED, but few are CHOSEN! (Mat 22:14)
Yes according to Jn 3:16. And there is much more that proves my position. I haven't seen anything that proves your except for speculation.The classic "non-TULIP" position is John 3:16 with emphasis on "the world" (everyone) and "whosoever believes" (anyone that chooses). Who had more reason to be "whosoever" than Adam, Eve and Cain? But what actually happened. They chose to hide from God rather than run to God with their sin ... God drew them to Himself to confront the sin. They hid or denied the sin rather than confess the sin ... God had to confront them with the fact of their sin. They did not repent of their sin, but doubled down with more sins (Adam blamed God and Cain lied). They chose to ignore both command and warning directly from the lips of God. They were no more capable of doing the right thing without the irresistable draw of God to compel them than we are.
If THEY didn't choose to be "whosoever" by their own choice, then what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?
That is where John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1-10 fit in and start to make a LOT of sense. We WON'T, so God MUST!
Many are CALLED, but few are CHOSEN! (Mat 22:14)
#7: Asking rhetorical questions to provoke deeper thought about the subject, in the one being asked.
#7: Asking rhetorical questions to provoke deeper thought about the subject, in the one being asked.
I didn't see a strawman in anything @atpollard asked him in that post.
So, other than what appear to be snappy comebacks with a pre-set numbered response based on what I imagine are your own, personal objections to "Calvinism"... do you have anything of substance to contribute?
You're right, he didn't and it doesn't ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).Nowhere (up to that point in the thread) did MB assert that parental upbringing has anything to do with the ability to choose.
I think it also saves you from actually discussing the Scriptures in a meaningful way...Sure, but I'm so tired of getting a canned response from Calvinists that I find my shorthand method of listing the erroneous arguments to be a real time saver.
With respect,So, other than what appear to be snappy comebacks with a pre-set numbered response based on what I imagine are your own, personal objections to "Calvinism"... do you have anything of substance to contribute?
I’ll have to look for a “Rhetorical Question” gif to help you avoid confusion.
Actually, God choosing us DOES mean that we will be saved no matter what.Our choosing does not mean we will be saved no matter what. It only mean we can be saved.
Denying it is irrelevant, ITL.
His word stands, no matter what your words say, and no matter how much you resist it.
This is "total inability", right from the words of Jesus Christ Himself, the Word made flesh...
" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).
Carefully reading and contemplating the very words should result in a belief of them, by anyone who is His.
So did you love God before you were saved? or were saved so you could love God? You see loving God implies a faith in Him. So were you saved so you could have faith? or were you saved because of your faith?Actually, God choosing us DOES mean that we will be saved no matter what.
[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose.
- God causes all things to work together
- “all things” means ALL things - that places God in charge
- Not according to our free will choice, the universe is not all about us, God is the important one so it is “according to HIS PURPOSE.”
Not so God knows all and all mean all.29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
- God “foreknew”
- Foreknew in Greek is not about knowing facts, it means knowing in a specific and individual personal relationship.
- You do not know ABOUT your wife, you actually KNOW her as an individual person
- The people God foreknew are the exact same people God predestined.
- Nobody foreknown did not end up predestined.
- Nobody predestined was not first foreknown by God.
The whole world is called. Although there is a problem with that not all are saved. The Bible says very plainly "many are called but few are chosen.30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
- The foreknown/predestined individuals are also all called by God.
- The foreknown/predestined/called individuals are also all justified by God.
- The foreknown/predestined/called/justified individuals are also all glorified by God.
Really! of course then Judas was saved no matter what.There is only one group of people ... those foreknown and predestined and called and justified and glorified ... and the one in charge of all of it is GOD.
The Bible calls for facts to be established by two or three witnesses, and Romans 8 is only one witness. So here is a second witness to establish a fact:
[Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
- Who began a good work in the Christians at Philippi, God did!
- Who will finish that good work, God will!
Third witness:
[John 10:27-29 NASB]
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
- We are the sheep.
- We belong to Jesus.
- Jesus (the shepherd) knows his sheep.
- Jesus sheep do follow Him.
- If a sheep wanders, it still belongs to the shepherd and he brings it back.
29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
- The shepherd gives eternal life to his sheep.
- The sheep cannot quit belonging to the shepherd.
- “Eternal” life is not eternal if you can loose it.
- “Never perish” is not never perish if you can perish.
- “No one” is not no one if it has an exception.
- The sheep did not choose the shepherd.
- The Shepherd did not even choose the sheep.
- The FATHER chose the sheep and gave them to the shepherd.
- Who can take back what God the Father gives?
So three witnesses testify that chosen to be saved means will be saved.
How do you define that term?atpollard said;
I do not see anything in Calvinism that is true. Many say that I just don't understand. I do understand Calvinism I just do not believe any of it. I understand that Calvinism is a man made doctrine not found in scripture. When Calvinist have defended there doctrine some have shown scripture to back it up but when read in context I find the scripture provided do not support what they claim. This is when they tell me I do not understand.
Atpollard Lets start with total depravity.
MB
You need to indicate which termHow do you define that term?
Total Depravity, as many define it in a way that Calvinists ourselves do not!You need to indicate which term
MB
- So did you love God before you were saved?
- or were saved so you could love God?
- You see loving God implies a faith in Him. So were you saved so you could have faith? or were you saved because of your faith?
[John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."Not so God knows all and all mean all.
Why is it my responsibility to prove my election to you?No where in this post have you proven you are in fact elect.
Just all of a sudden you were saved while not loving or believing in Jesus Christ or His gospel. Did you realize you were saved all at once? or was it gradual..That was the problem that I had reading scripture and attending the Church of God. They taught what you believe and that ran contradictory to my empirical experience of how God saved ME. Within Scripture, I found places like Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 and John 6:44 that matched REALITY as I knew it first hand for me (the only salvation that I know the details of). Thus I became a 4 point Calvinist before I ever heard of John Calvin or Calvinism or Arminianism or Reformed Theology. I never got to "Limited Atonement" on my own because it never occurred to me to care who Christ had died for (some or all) ... it was enough that JESUS had died for ME.
- No, I did not love God before I was saved (I was a nihilist).
- Yes, I was saved so that I could love God (closer to Saul on the road to Damascus than any other story in the Bible).
- I was saved by God granting a new heart, a new outlook on the world; then I accepted that God was in charge and over time grew to love Him.
There is only one problem and that is your story of Salvation is contrary to scripture. Scripture never even suggest such a thing is possible. That is to be saved so you can believe and Love God Acts 16"31 is also true..That, I later learned, is (T) (U) (I) and (P) ... four point Calvinism learned by reading Scripture under an Arminian teacher.
- I was unwilling and uninterested in anything to do with God ... just go and get your meds adjusted if you think god speaks to you.
- There was nothing meritorious in me that God should have chosen me and not others ... I stole and smuggled drugs over state lines and set enemies on fire.
- God laid claim on me when I had no interest in Him and I was unable to say no.
- I am convinced that God is real and scripture is true, so those that the Father draws the Son WILL raise and no one (including me) can snatch me out of the hands of the father and Son and He who began a good work is able to finish it and the Holy Spirit living in me really is a deposit GUARANTEEING the redemption of God's property.
It is hard for me to deny reality after living it.