Proof Calvinism is the only true doctrine

#4

 

#7: Asking rhetorical questions to provoke deeper thought about the subject, in the one being asked.

I didn't see a strawman in anything @atpollard asked him in that post.
So, other than what appear to be snappy comebacks with a pre-set numbered response based on what I imagine are your own, personal objections to "Calvinism"... do you have anything of substance to contribute?

 

Here is the strawman:
...what makes you think that we will do better than Adam and Eve? Were your parents better at training you up than God?

Nowhere does MB assert that he can do better than Adam and Eve. Nowhere does MB assert that Adam and Eve are the ultimate "whosoever" that somehow has an edge in deciding to believe. Nowhere (up to that point in the thread) did MB assert that parental upbringing has anything to do with the ability to choose.

Sure, but I'm so tired of getting a canned response from Calvinists that I find my shorthand method of listing the erroneous arguments to be a real time saver.

 

You're right, he didn't and it doesn't ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
Again, I think @atpollard was asking rhetorical questions...not trying to develop a strawman in order to "win the debate".

I think it also saves you from actually discussing the Scriptures in a meaningful way...
But that's just my own impression.

I also cannot remember where I ever posted a "canned response" to genuine questions about why I believe what I do from God's word, not even from you.

However, I'm only recently a member here, so it occurs to me that I may have missed the past threads where you actually developed your objections to the doctrines, in-depth and from God's word, and why you appear to see the Scriptures used in support of them, as not meaning what they say.

With respect,
I take your answer in the above post, to be a "no".

 

I’ll have to look for a “Rhetorical Question” gif to help you avoid confusion.

<= sarcasm emoji (FYI)

 

Actually, God choosing us DOES mean that we will be saved no matter what.

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB]
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose.

• God causes all things to work together
• “all things” means ALL things - that places God in charge
• Not according to our free will choice, the universe is not all about us, God is the important one so it is “according to HIS PURPOSE.”

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

• God “foreknew”
• Foreknew in Greek is not about knowing facts, it means knowing in a specific and individual personal relationship.
• You do not know ABOUT your wife, you actually KNOW her as an individual person
• The people God foreknew are the exact same people God predestined.
• Nobody foreknown did not end up predestined.
• Nobody predestined was not first foreknown by God.

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

• The foreknown/predestined individuals are also all called by God.
• The foreknown/predestined/called individuals are also all justified by God.
• The foreknown/predestined/called/justified individuals are also all glorified by God.

There is only one group of people ... those foreknown and predestined and called and justified and glorified ... and the one in charge of all of it is GOD.

The Bible calls for facts to be established by two or three witnesses, and Romans 8 is only one witness. So here is a second witness to establish a fact:

[Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

• Who began a good work in the Christians at Philippi, God did!
• Who will finish that good work, God will!

Third witness:

[John 10:27-29 NASB]
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

• We are the sheep.
• We belong to Jesus.
• Jesus (the shepherd) knows his sheep.
• Jesus sheep do follow Him.
• If a sheep wanders, it still belongs to the shepherd and he brings it back.

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

• The shepherd gives eternal life to his sheep.
• The sheep cannot quit belonging to the shepherd.
• “Eternal” life is not eternal if you can loose it.
• “Never perish” is not never perish if you can perish.
• “No one” is not no one if it has an exception.

29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

• The sheep did not choose the shepherd.
• The Shepherd did not even choose the sheep.
• The FATHER chose the sheep and gave them to the shepherd.
• Who can take back what God the Father gives?

So three witnesses testify that chosen to be saved means will be saved.

 

Careful reading indicates everyone he is talking to came to him.

John 6

32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”


Nothing about God restricting Jesus to anyone.


Even previously we see the capacity to seek Jesus and again Jesus making an offer to them, Calvinist Jesus would have never done.

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.


My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

which the Son of Man will give to you

gives life to the world

He is talking to his audience of John 6.


John 6
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

Jesus states clearly the problem and obstacle is they don't believe. Calvinist Jesus would simply say you were not OFFERED because you were NOT chosen.

Clearly through the entire scripture the OFFER WAS MADE and then REJECTED.

IF we went through the scripture without bias play by play line by line, There is no way you will arrive to Calvinist position.

The only way it can work is have the philosophy drilled in first and then taking lines out of context.

But if you start naked from the scripture alone..... verse 1 means this, next verse means that...... I challenge you, there is no way you will arrive at the Calvinist position.

He starts off telling the crowd don't work for food that perishes but what I am going to give to you.

So first off what is being given some sort of food. fine.


My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

Again the offer is made to these people. The father gives YOU.

THE GIFT has been GIVEN.


52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

Jesus could have said. HOLD ON BUDDY.....I haven't offered you anything.

No they clearly were offered eternal life. In fact Calvinist would have to agree with the Jews that it is FALSE that Jesus offered them eternal life.


That is not what he says: My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.


Read the chapter from begging to end. And just write out what it means line by line. Pull what the scripture SAYS.

There is a good reason why Jesus sounds disappointed at the end, because he OFFERED something and it got rejected.

There is nothing there about God holding back.

I dare you to go line by line on that chapter, JUST YOU and SCRIPTURE.

 

How do you define that term?

 

You guys start with a definition drilled into your head first and merely use scripture for acknowledgement rather than source.

Example Election meaning chosen and already judged to be saved prior to creation.

You go thru the bible and every time a elect person is saved.......OH look you see that.



What is required and you don't do is START WITH SCRIPTURE. And pull out the meaning FROM SCRIPTURE.



Same thing with Total Depravity. you start with the philosophy and chime it as part of being on the subject of the philosophy when it has nothing to do with it.


Its like you start with the philosophy of CAR WASH, and everytime scripture mentions WATER....> oh they are talking about washing the car. To the point where if anyone has a drink of water....well yes that drink is for their CAR WASH. Which is complete nonsense.

Well brother are you saying you can live without drinking water? NO. OH well so you see CAR WASH is TRUE.

Its no different debating a Calvinist.

 

Total Depravity, as many define it in a way that Calvinists ourselves do not!

 

1. No, I did not love God before I was saved (I was a nihilist).
2. Yes, I was saved so that I could love God (closer to Saul on the road to Damascus than any other story in the Bible).
3. I was saved by God granting a new heart, a new outlook on the world; then I accepted that God was in charge and over time grew to love Him.

That was the problem that I had reading scripture and attending the Church of God. They taught what you believe and that ran contradictory to my empirical experience of how God saved ME. Within Scripture, I found places like Ephesians 2 and Romans 9 and John 6:44 that matched REALITY as I knew it first hand for me (the only salvation that I know the details of). Thus I became a 4 point Calvinist before I ever heard of John Calvin or Calvinism or Arminianism or Reformed Theology. I never got to "Limited Atonement" on my own because it never occurred to me to care who Christ had died for (some or all) ... it was enough that JESUS had died for ME.

• I was unwilling and uninterested in anything to do with God ... just go and get your meds adjusted if you think god speaks to you.
• There was nothing meritorious in me that God should have chosen me and not others ... I stole and smuggled drugs over state lines and set enemies on fire.
• God laid claim on me when I had no interest in Him and I was unable to say no.
• I am convinced that God is real and scripture is true, so those that the Father draws the Son WILL raise and no one (including me) can snatch me out of the hands of the father and Son and He who began a good work is able to finish it and the Holy Spirit living in me really is a deposit GUARANTEEING the redemption of God's property.

That, I later learned, is (T) (U) (I) and (P) ... four point Calvinism learned by reading Scripture under an Arminian teacher.
It is hard for me to deny reality after living it.

 

[John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Please explain how the people living in Mesoamerica (Mexico, Columbia, Nicaragua, Honduras, etc.) ... the Aztec, Mayan and Inca cultures ... were DRAWN to Jesus Christ from AD 33 (the crucifixion where Christ was lifted up) to AD 1400 (before the first Europeans arrived and they ever heard about Jesus)?

They are part of ALL (every individual without exception).
I keep hearing "ALL MEANS ALL" but I have this problem called "REALITY" that gets in the way of my understanding what the heck you people really mean.

 

Why is it my responsibility to prove my election to you?

What buisiness would it be of mine to ask you to prove that you had confessed, repented and been baptized?
The proof of salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... good luck proving on the internet that you have the Holy Spirit living in you. I welcome your attempt so I can see how it is done by a "real Christian" (not one of us "Calvinists" that believe in a soverign God that saves people without any help).

 

Calvinism falls apart when it comes to infant death and/or abortion.