Dave G
Well-Known Member
As you can see in the above posts, George, even those who consider themselves to be "Baptists" cannot agree among themselves as to what what the words actually say.
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On the criterion of "election"
- Thread starter George Antonios
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
We've said repeatedly that this begs the question: "what is the criterion that satisfies 'the good pleasure of his will'"?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Precisely.
There's not a doubt in my mind that every saint that's ever lived were "in Him" before the foundation of the world.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Brother, Paul concludes that faith is the criterion. Did Paul read his own development wrong?
The conclusion is always simpler and illuminates the development; not the other way around.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Right but you need verses for that assurance, and then you need to deal with the ones listed above and others, that plainly teach that we got in Christ when we believed.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Nothing.
In order to satisfy the good pleasure of His will, one must do something to satisfy it.
In the light of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:2-4 and others...
Do you think that man is capable and willing to do that which would satisfy it?
The only thing that can, is perfect obedience to the Law... which is still in effect, and which only one Man could ever obey...
Jesus Christ.
Faith and belief in His work do not supplant the Law.
The Law is the only thing that applies to men.
Its purpose was to function as the "schoolmaster" to bring the elect to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ).
It has no other purpose but to condemn men for their failure to obey God's commands ( Romans 7:1-12 ), and to point them to the only One who did.
Making faith and belief into works of the flesh that a spiritually dead man can do, does in no way satisfy God.
Given.
See Ephesians 1:3-6, and post # 20.
This is my last reply in this thread.
I bid you a good day, sir.
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Your question makes no sense, other than you're questioning the mind of God. Read this real slow:
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1
criterion
NOUN
- a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided.
"the launch came too close to violating safety criteria"
synonyms:
basis · point of reference · standard · norm · yardstick · benchmark · touchstone · test · formula · measure · gauge · scale · barometer · indicator · litmus test · specification · guide · guideline · guiding principle · principle · rule · law · canon · convention
Absolutely not!
Election occurred before we were even born, before the world began. My faith had diddly squat to do with His election.
Then the elect were not born in sin. Is this what you are claiming?
MB
If 'faith', to George Antonios, equates to 'your faith', 'your will', 'your choice', 'your decision', then George Antonios indeed has great occasion to glory, because it is of George Antonios that George Antonios is in Christ Jesus!
26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).
Believer's were chosen "in Him".
When?
Before the foundation of the world.
Why?
So that the believer should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
They were made accepted in the beloved...when?
Before the foundation of the world.
By who?
By the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...
He has made the believer accepted in the beloved, not the believer.
He has also predestinated the believer to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself.
According to what?
The good pleasure of His will.
Why?
To the praise of the glory of His grace.
When?
Before the foundation of the world.
That is what is written.
Faith comes later, in real time...when Christ's sheep "hear" the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ), believe it, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
Best wishes to you, sir.
You're taking one dark (relatively) verse against the clear testimony of many others.
I'll reason in a parallel fashion to your reply now:
Believers were chosen "in Him". When?
When they believed, long after God laid the foundation of the world.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus [after having believed on Christ and been baptized into him, in time].
They were made accepted in the beloved...When?
The day they got saved, in time, long after the foundation of the world:
2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
And that is what is written also.
How were we in Christ, then got out of Christ and into Adam, and then back into Christ? - a point which has yet to be tackled by anyone.
Furthermore, if we were in Christ before the foundation of the world, how is it that Romans 9 says that at first we were not God's people (Ro.9:25-26)? How can we have been in him and at the same time not my people?!
Ephesians 1:4 is simple. God, before the foundation of the world, and in his foreknowledge, chose to present people who would believe on his Son as holy and without blame before him in love [which is a separate issue from salvation, mind you - God could have saved us and not chosen to present us before him, but that's for another day].
You see here's the main reason for the disagreement, as far I see it, as a former Calvinist: Calvinists interpret clear passages in the light of dark ones, whereas non-Calvinists interpret dark passages in the light of the clear ones.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I get that, but there are two main reasons why that reasoning is not true, at least not as far as God is concerned.
1) You can't prop up human reasoning against the plain text of the scriptures. Romans 9 says that the Gentiles were elect because they believed. So that's that.
2) The only way that a text like 1Corinthians 1:26-31 can be presented as a counter-argument is if you define my believing as a work. But the scripture does not do that. In fact, it expressly tells me that my believing on Christ is not a work.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, BUT believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Note how Paul makes believing and not working equivalent.
Following are verses that clearly place faith and works in contradistinction to each other:
The word of God therefore teaches that faith is not a work, therefore, George Antonios cannot glory in doing a work by believing.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The OP @George Antonios is trying to make election and salvation synonyms. They are not. Election is part of salvation. We are still saved by grace through faith. But for the elect, the Father draws them to himself so that they necessarily put their faith in Christ.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Verses please. You can't disannul Romans 9 and a bunch of other such verses just by your words.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
He already gave Ephesians 1.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Nothing.
In order to satisfy the good pleasure of His will, one must do something to satisfy it.
In the light of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:2-4 and others...
Do you think that man is capable and willing to do that which would satisfy it?
The only thing that can, is perfect obedience to the Law... which is still in effect, and which only one Man could ever obey...
Jesus Christ.
Faith and belief in His work do not supplant the Law.
The Law is the only thing that applies to men.
Its purpose was to function as the "schoolmaster" to bring the elect to Christ ( Galatians 3:24 ).
It has no other purpose but to condemn men for their failure to obey God's commands ( Romans 7:1-12 ), and to point them to the only One who did.
Making faith and belief into works of the flesh that a spiritually dead man can do, does in no way satisfy God.
Given.
See Ephesians 1:3-6, and post # 20.
This is my last reply in this thread.
I bid you a good day, sir.
I meant God's own criterion for himself to choose one man and damn another.
Post #20 was answered in Post # 33.
Good day to you too
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
That was already dealt with.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And if God doesn't tell us the criteria how are we supposed to know it?I meant God's own criterion for himself to choose one man and damn another.
Post #20 was answered in Post # 33.
Good day to you too
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