On the criterion of "election"

[Reformed1689]

That was already dealt with.

Not really

 

[George Antonios]

Your question makes no sense, other than you're questioning the mind of God. Read this real slow:

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1

criterion

NOUN

1. a principle or standard by which something may be judged or decided.
   "the launch came too close to violating safety criteria"
   synonyms:
   basis · point of reference · standard · norm · yardstick · benchmark · touchstone · test · formula · measure · gauge · scale · barometer · indicator · litmus test · specification · guide · guideline · guiding principle · principle · rule · law · canon · convention

'The good pleasure of His will' is the criterion of election.

But why does he will to choose one man and damn another.
We get that he is "sovereign". The question is, again, based on what does it please God's will to damn one man and save another? Chance? Caprice?

 

[Reformed1689]

But why does he will to choose one man and damn another.
We get that he is "sovereign". The question is, again, based on what does it please God's will to damn one man and save another? Chance? Caprice?

Why does it matter? That sounds harsh but why are you trying to question God? Who are you O man?

 

[George Antonios]

@George Antonios , I am still waiting for your answer.

Hello Reformed.
Election does not happen in eternity [Ephesians 1:4 has been dealt with in the posts, and no one has yet tackled the problem posed by being in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world if we interpret it in a Calvinistic way. See post #33].
Election happens always in time. He chooses to save those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Peter 1:2 Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: ...

We were sanctified of the Spirit when we believed, not before the foundation of the world.
God foreknew who would get saved and made sure to get them the gospel (according to the foreknowledge of God) but the actual election occurred at the time of believing. It's beautifully simple.

 

[Van]

If God chooses or elects someone for salvation based on something they do, that is a works based salvation. If God chooses someone for salvation and that person responds to something God has done (drawing, convicting, etc.., of Holy Spirit.), you have grace.

Peace to you

That is a material false statement. Faith is not works, being saved by grace through faith is not being saved through works. Romans 4:4-5

 

[George Antonios]

And if God doesn't tell us the criteria how are we supposed to know it?

Fair enough. That was also the conclusion of the related thread: we don't know.
(Even though the scriptures repeatedly and plainly declare that it's faith).

 

[George Antonios]

Why does it matter? That sounds harsh but why are you trying to question God? Who are you O man?

Right, but I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning you guys.

 

[Reformed1689]

Hello Reformed.
Election does not happen in eternity [Ephesians 1:4 has been dealt with in the posts, and no one has yet tackled the problem posed by being in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world if we interpret it in a Calvinistic way. See post #33].
Election happens always in time. He chooses to save those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Peter 1:2 Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: ...

We were sanctified of the Spirit when we believed, not before the foundation of the world.
God foreknew who would get saved and made sure to get them the gospel (according to the foreknowledge of God) but the actual election occurred at the time of believing. It's beautifully simple.

Ephesians 1:4 says chosen in him. That's not the same thing as being in him.

 

[George Antonios]

Ephesians 1:4 says chosen in him. That's not the same thing as being in him.

An explanation would help. I'm willing to listen.

 

[Reformed1689]

An explanation would help. I'm willing to listen.

You are chosen in Christ (Election). When you are saved then you are actually in Christ. This goes back to election and salvation are not synonyms as you try to portray.

 

[George Antonios]

You are chosen in Christ (Election)

But again, what does that mean when you say "in Christ", how am chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world? I'm sure there's an explanation, I just want to hear yours.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is a material false statement. Faith is not works, being saved by grace through faith is not being saved through works. Romans 4:4-5

They didn't claim such. Again, election is not based on faith, salvation is.

 

[George Antonios]

They didn't claim such. Again, election is not based on faith, salvation is.

You need to refresh our memory on the distinction, and how would you apply that distinction to Romans 9? I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but what do you mean? And with what verses?

 

[Reformed1689]

But again, what does that mean when you say "in Christ", how am chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world? I'm sure there's an explanation, I just want to hear yours.

It goes back to Christ only died for the elect. You were chosen [to be] in Christ before the foundation of the world. Once you embrace that election by being saved by grace through faith, you are then in Christ.

 

[Reformed1689]

You need to refresh our memory on the distinction, and how would you apply that distinction to Romans 9? I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but what do you mean? And with what verses?

If you were chosen to be saved before you are saved you are not actually saved until you place your faith in Christ. I don't know what is so hard about this. We have psoted all of the verses already.

 

[Van]

They didn't claim such. Again, election is not based on faith, salvation is.

Yet another false statement, individual election for salvation is through faith. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. And a salvation through faith is not a salvation through works, Romans 4:4-5

 

[George Antonios]

It goes back to Christ only died for the elect. You were chosen [to be] in Christ before the foundation of the world. Once you embrace that election by being saved by grace through faith, you are then in Christ.

The issue is that there other verses than Ephesians 1:4 to be accounted for. For instance:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We were elect...through sanctification of the Spirit. Were we sanctified by the Spirit before we existed before the world began, or when we received the Spirit upon believing?

Paul says the same
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ditto. And the beginning there, even if we grant that it's the beginning of the world, is not before the foundation but from the foundation, so already we have a difference.




So, since two verses plainly state that election through sanctification of the Spirit, which plainly happened in time, we must interpret Ephesians 1:14, a harder verse, by the simpler ones, not the other way around.

God chose to place in Christ those who would believe in him. That's simple too. In fact simpler.

Please also consider that the Calvinist interpretation has the major weakness of leaving us without a known criterion for God's choice.

 

[Reformed1689]

Again, your problem is that you try to use election and salvation as synonyms.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We were elect...through sanctification of the Spirit. Were we sanctified by the Spirit before we existed before the world began, or when we received the Spirit upon believing?

Yes. We are elect because of God's foreknowledge (not foresight) and it will be through the sanctification of the Spirit and the blood of Christ that the election is made effective aka Salvation.

Paul says the same
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Yes you were chosen to salvation. How will that salvation be accomplished? Through the sanctification....

So I still hold chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ as we have been saying. Your verses posted do not change anything.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another false statement, individual election for salvation is through faith. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. And a salvation through faith is not a salvation through works, Romans 4:4-5

See my other post to @George Antonios. Yes we are chosen to salvation. How will it be realized? Through faith. The choosing and the saving do not happen at the same time.

 

[George Antonios]

Again, your problem is that you try to use election and salvation as synonyms.

Yes. We are elect because of God's foreknowledge (not foresight) and it will be through the sanctification of the Spirit and the blood of Christ that the election is made effective aka Salvation.

What do you mean by "because of God's foreknowledge"?
And what do you mean by "(not foresight)"?