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On the criterion of "election"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 3, 2019.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Not really
     
    #41 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  2. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    But why does he will to choose one man and damn another.
    We get that he is "sovereign". The question is, again, based on what does it please God's will to damn one man and save another? Chance? Caprice?
     
    #42 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  3. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Why does it matter? That sounds harsh but why are you trying to question God? Who are you O man?
     
    #43 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
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  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Hello Reformed.
    Election does not happen in eternity [Ephesians 1:4 has been dealt with in the posts, and no one has yet tackled the problem posed by being in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world if we interpret it in a Calvinistic way. See post #33].
    Election happens always in time. He chooses to save those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    1Peter 1:2 Elect
    according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
    through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: ...

    We were sanctified of the Spirit when we believed, not before the foundation of the world.
    God foreknew who would get saved and made sure to get them the gospel (according to the foreknowledge of God) but the actual election occurred at the time of believing. It's beautifully simple.
     
    #44 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    That is a material false statement. Faith is not works, being saved by grace through faith is not being saved through works. Romans 4:4-5
     
    #45 Van, Oct 4, 2019
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. That was also the conclusion of the related thread: we don't know.
    (Even though the scriptures repeatedly and plainly declare that it's faith).
     
    #46 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Right, but I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning you guys.
     
    #47 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1:4 says chosen in him. That's not the same thing as being in him.
     
    #48 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    An explanation would help. I'm willing to listen.
     
    #49 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You are chosen in Christ (Election). When you are saved then you are actually in Christ. This goes back to election and salvation are not synonyms as you try to portray.
     
    #50 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    But again, what does that mean when you say "in Christ", how am chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world? I'm sure there's an explanation, I just want to hear yours.
     
    #51 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    They didn't claim such. Again, election is not based on faith, salvation is.
     
    #52 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You need to refresh our memory on the distinction, and how would you apply that distinction to Romans 9? I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but what do you mean? And with what verses?
     
    #53 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    It goes back to Christ only died for the elect. You were chosen [to be] in Christ before the foundation of the world. Once you embrace that election by being saved by grace through faith, you are then in Christ.
     
    #54 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    If you were chosen to be saved before you are saved you are not actually saved until you place your faith in Christ. I don't know what is so hard about this. We have psoted all of the verses already.
     
    #55 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another false statement, individual election for salvation is through faith. James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. And a salvation through faith is not a salvation through works, Romans 4:4-5
     
    #56 Van, Oct 4, 2019
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  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that there other verses than Ephesians 1:4 to be accounted for. For instance:

    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    We were elect...through sanctification of the Spirit. Were we sanctified by the Spirit before we existed before the world began, or when we received the Spirit upon believing?

    Paul says the same
    2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Ditto. And the beginning there, even if we grant that it's the beginning of the world, is not before the foundation but from the foundation, so already we have a difference.

    From the beginning.gif


    So, since two verses plainly state that election through sanctification of the Spirit, which plainly happened in time, we must interpret Ephesians 1:14, a harder verse, by the simpler ones, not the other way around.

    God chose to place in Christ those who would believe in him. That's simple too. In fact simpler.

    Please also consider that the Calvinist interpretation has the major weakness of leaving us without a known criterion for God's choice.
     
    #57 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Again, your problem is that you try to use election and salvation as synonyms.

    Yes. We are elect because of God's foreknowledge (not foresight) and it will be through the sanctification of the Spirit and the blood of Christ that the election is made effective aka Salvation.

    Yes you were chosen to salvation. How will that salvation be accomplished? Through the sanctification....

    So I still hold chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ as we have been saying. Your verses posted do not change anything.
     
    #58 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    See my other post to @George Antonios. Yes we are chosen to salvation. How will it be realized? Through faith. The choosing and the saving do not happen at the same time.
     
    #59 Reformed1689, Oct 4, 2019
  20. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by "because of God's foreknowledge"?
    And what do you mean by "(not foresight)"?
     
    #60 George Antonios, Oct 4, 2019
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