On the criterion of "election"

I get your position. It's just that the other verses discussed tell us that election (the choice) was made when we believed, not in eternity past. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 must simply mean that in eternity past God chose to save all those who would believe in Christ - not that he chose whom he would later put in Christ. And this interpretation solves more problems than it creates. Get my position?
I'm not saying you should agree, just asking if you get how I see it.

 

Ok fine, I'll adopt that distinction for accommodation.
So God foresaw something (?) in you and me which caused him to choose to later place us in Christ?

 

Oh it's that I don't read the according as because. God was simply aware of what would happen but that's not the reason why he chose to save me. There's a difference.

 

Ok so what do you mean then? Must I beg to know?

 

It all rests on using Ephesians 1:4, an obscure verse, to interpret clear one, or using the clear ones to interpret the obscure Ephesians 1:4.
I get that now, to you, Ephesians 1:4 is not obscure. But it's the Calvinist's starting point and he paints all the rest with the hue of that relatively hard verse (as most people will confess it to be) and ends up with no criterion for salvation - not even Christ himself, for Christ is now revealed to be nothing more than a vehicle sent in time to save those whom God had chosen to save before time and not because of Christ...

 

Ok tell me where I'm wrong:
Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ.

 

Agreed.

 

But the election (made in eternity) is one about salvation (actuated in time), is it not?

Here's my post again, with bold letters and explanations in brackets:
"Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice [that's election, by definition] in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice [that's election, by definition] (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ."

Again, what is wrong in what I wrote?

 

That's precisely my point. It's just the "agent".
I honestly don't understand what you're not understanding in my question or thinking.
I don't mean that in a rude tone at all because it's hard to convey tone on a screen.

Again: I get your distinction in time between election (before the world) and salvation (through Christ, in time).

What I'm telling you is that your position, which confesses ignorance as to the criterion for God's choice [I'm not talking now about salvation in time, but about the election unto salvation before the world began], implies that Christ is not the criterion for the election. He is the agent of salvation, yes, but not the reason (criterion) for election.

 

It's election. UNTO. salvation. (And I was trying to conform to your chronological distinction.)
That's why it matters!
Now, WOW!

wow wow wow. It took a while, but there it is, ladies and gentlemen. You Calvinists were not chosen [election] because of Jesus Christ. You don't why it was you, but "of course" it had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. It may be some inherent value in you aside from Christ... At least the non-Calvinist believes he was chosen [election] in connection to Christ (because of believing in him).

I've heard a lot in my life, but "gems" like this, very few...