On the criterion of "election"

[Reformed1689]

What do you mean by "because of God's foreknowledge"?
And what do you mean by "(not foresight)"?

I mean that the verse says according to God's foreknowledge. Not sure what you are asking.

Foreknowledge and foresight are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means God knew us before he made us in an intimate way. Foresight implies looking into the future to see what will happen and acting accordingly.

 

[George Antonios]

See my other post to @George Antonios. Yes we are chosen to salvation. How will it be realized? Through faith. The choosing and the saving do not happen at the same time.

I get your position. It's just that the other verses discussed tell us that election (the choice) was made when we believed, not in eternity past. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 must simply mean that in eternity past God chose to save all those who would believe in Christ - not that he chose whom he would later put in Christ. And this interpretation solves more problems than it creates. Get my position?
I'm not saying you should agree, just asking if you get how I see it.

 

[George Antonios]

I mean that the verse says according to God's foreknowledge. Not sure what you are asking.

Foreknowledge and foresight are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means God knew us before he made us in an intimate way. Foresight implies looking into the future to see what will happen and acting accordingly.

Ok fine, I'll adopt that distinction for accommodation.
So God foresaw something (?) in you and me which caused him to choose to later place us in Christ?

 

[Reformed1689]

I get your position. It's just that the other verses discussed tell us that election (the choice) was made when we believed, not in eternity past. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 must simply mean that in eternity past God chose to save all those who would believe in Christ - not that he chose whom he would later put in Christ. And this interpretation solves more problems than it creates. Get my position?
I'm not saying you should agree, just asking if you get how I see it.

Except that is not what those verses say as I have already discussed.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ok fine, I'll adopt that distinction for accommodation.
So God foresaw something (?) in you and me which caused him to choose to later place us in Christ?

No that is exactly what did not happen.

 

[George Antonios]

I mean that the verse says according to God's foreknowledge. Not sure what you are asking.

Foreknowledge and foresight are not the same thing. Foreknowledge means God knew us before he made us in an intimate way. Foresight implies looking into the future to see what will happen and acting accordingly.

Oh it's that I don't read the according as because. God was simply aware of what would happen but that's not the reason why he chose to save me. There's a difference.

 

[George Antonios]

No that is exactly what did not happen.

Ok so what do you mean then? Must I beg to know?

 

[George Antonios]

Except that is not what those verses say as I have already discussed.

It all rests on using Ephesians 1:4, an obscure verse, to interpret clear one, or using the clear ones to interpret the obscure Ephesians 1:4.
I get that now, to you, Ephesians 1:4 is not obscure. But it's the Calvinist's starting point and he paints all the rest with the hue of that relatively hard verse (as most people will confess it to be) and ends up with no criterion for salvation - not even Christ himself, for Christ is now revealed to be nothing more than a vehicle sent in time to save those whom God had chosen to save before time and not because of Christ...

 

[Reformed1689]

It all rests on using Ephesians 1:4, an obscure verse, to interpret clear one, or using the clear ones to interpret the obscure Ephesians 1:4.
I get that now, to you, Ephesians 1:4 is not obscure. But it's the Calvinist's starting point and he paints all the rest with the hue of that relatively hard verse (as most people will confess it to be) and ends up with no criterion for salvation - not even Christ himself, for Christ is now revealed to be nothing more than a vehicle sent in time to save those whom God had chosen to save before time and not because of Christ...

Ok how do you get not because of Christ out of what I have said? You really are twisting a lot of words. And no, Ephesians 1:4 is pretty straightforward, not obscure. Simple grammar makes those other verses easy as well.

 

[George Antonios]

Ok how do you get not because of Christ out of what I have said? You really are twisting a lot of words. And no, Ephesians 1:4 is pretty straightforward, not obscure. Simple grammar makes those other verses easy as well.

Ok tell me where I'm wrong:
Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ.

 

[George Antonios]

Simple grammar makes those other verses easy as well.

Agreed.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ok tell me where I'm wrong:
Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ.

No, that is not what we have said. We don't know his criteria for electing to salvation. We definitely know what his criteria for Salvation is. Again, you are trying to combine the two words.

NEVER has someone on this board said, to my knowledge, that faith in Christ is not the criteria for salvation.

 

[Reformed1689]

Agreed.

Then why is it so difficult for you to understand?

 

[George Antonios]

No, that is not what we have said. We don't know his criteria for electing to salvation. We definitely know what his criteria for Salvation is. Again, you are trying to combine the two words.

NEVER has someone on this board said, to my knowledge, that faith in Christ is not the criteria for salvation.

But the election (made in eternity) is one about salvation (actuated in time), is it not?

Here's my post again, with bold letters and explanations in brackets:
"Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice [that's election, by definition] in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice [that's election, by definition] (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ."

Again, what is wrong in what I wrote?

 

[Van]

See my other post to @George Antonios. Yes we are chosen to salvation. How will it be realized? Through faith. The choosing and the saving do not happen at the same time.

What verse says they do not have together, first the choosing on the basis of faith, then the saving by being given to Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Sanctification by the Spirit refers to being set apart in Christ.

 

[Reformed1689]

But the election (made in eternity) is one about salvation (actuated in time), is it not?

Here's my post again, with bold letters and explanations in brackets:
"Calvinists don't know the criterion for God's choice [that's election, by definition] in saving one man or damning another: it's a mystery.
That's been repeatedly said in 2 threads.
And they've also repeatedly said that faith (in Christ) is not the criterion.
So the criterion is not Christ.

Christ is just what God uses to save a person in time, but the choice [that's election, by definition] (made in eternity past) to save that person had no connection to Christ."

Again, what is wrong in what I wrote?

Because nobody said, nor claims, that Christ has nothing to do with the salvation. We are saved through faith alone by grace alone in Christ alone. I don't understand what the hangup is for you. Christ's sacrifice and our faith in that sacrifice is the agent by which God chose to make the election effectual unto salvation. Not sure what your problem is with that.

 

[George Antonios]

Christ's sacrifice and our faith in that sacrifice is the agent by which God chose to make the election effectual unto salvation.

That's precisely my point. It's just the "agent".
I honestly don't understand what you're not understanding in my question or thinking.
I don't mean that in a rude tone at all because it's hard to convey tone on a screen.

Again: I get your distinction in time between election (before the world) and salvation (through Christ, in time).

What I'm telling you is that your position, which confesses ignorance as to the criterion for God's choice [I'm not talking now about salvation in time, but about the election unto salvation before the world began], implies that Christ is not the criterion for the election. He is the agent of salvation, yes, but not the reason (criterion) for election.

 

[Reformed1689]

That's precisely my point. It's just the "agent".
I honestly don't understand what you're not understanding in my question or thinking.
I don't mean that in a rude tone at all because it's hard to convey tone on a screen.

Again: I get your distinction in time between election (before the world) and salvation (through Christ, in time).

What I'm telling you is that your position, which confesses ignorance as to the criterion for God's choice [I'm not talking now about salvation in time, but about the election unto salvation before the world began], implies that Christ is not the criterion for the election. He is the agent of salvation, yes, but not the reason (criterion) for election.

Well of course, He is not the reason for election. But why does that matter? He is the reason for salvation. But since we were elected well before his death he could not possibly have been the reason for election unless you look at it from the standpoint that we will be given to him. In that sense, the Father was electing us for his good pleasure and the good pleasure of the Son.

But earlier, you said we claim that Christ is not the reason for salvation. You keep interchanging the words salvation and election at different points.

 

[George Antonios]

But earlier, you said we claim that Christ is not the reason for salvation. You keep interchanging the words salvation and election at different points.

It's election. UNTO. salvation. (And I was trying to conform to your chronological distinction.)
That's why it matters!
Now, WOW!

Well of course, He is not the reason for election.

wow wow wow. It took a while, but there it is, ladies and gentlemen. You Calvinists were not chosen [election] because of Jesus Christ. You don't why it was you, but "of course" it had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. It may be some inherent value in you aside from Christ... At least the non-Calvinist believes he was chosen [election] in connection to Christ (because of believing in him).

I've heard a lot in my life, but "gems" like this, very few...

 

[kyredneck]

But why does he will to choose one man and damn another.

But why do you continue to question the mind of God?

O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?