On the criterion of "election"

[George Antonios]

But why do you continue to question the mind of God?

O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

I'm questioning yours, brother, not God's. Small distinction.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's election. UNTO. salvation. (And I was trying to conform to your chronological distinction.)
That's why it matters!
Now, WOW!


wow wow wow. It took a while, but there it is, ladies and gentlemen. You Calvinists were not chosen [election] because of Jesus Christ. You don't why it was you, but "of course" it had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. It may be some inherent value in you aside from Christ... At least the non-Calvinist believes he was chosen [election] in connection to Christ (because of believing in him).

I've heard a lot in my life, but "gems" like this, very few...

Are you going to actually address what I said or just mock those who hold to doctrine's of grace? And again, you are merging salvation and election. You say you are not but you definitely are. Why is it necessary that we are chosen in direct connection to Christ? Why is that a contention point for you? We were chosen IN CHRIST. So there is that connection. But the belief in Christ comes much much later. They are separate things even though they are connected and necessitate one another.

But if we are chosen because of our belief, that is a works-based salvation.

 

[Reformed1689]

I'm questioning yours, brother, not God's. Small distinction.

No, you are actually questioning God's because you keep fighting against what Scripture actually says then try to paint those who oppose you as some kind of heretic because they see it differently than you do when the Bible actually supports their position and not yours.

 

[George Antonios]

Are you going to actually address what I said or just mock those who hold to doctrine's of grace? And again, you are merging salvation and election. You say you are not but you definitely are. Why is it necessary that we are chosen in direct connection to Christ? Why is that a contention point for you? We were chosen IN CHRIST. So there is that connection. But the belief in Christ comes much much later. They are separate things even though they are connected and necessitate one another.

A) Answer me this: is it not election unto salvation? Yes or No? And you know well that I played by your rules as anyone reading the above can see.
B) I did not mock at all. Point where. I reiterated your statements and accurately represented your position.

But if we are chosen because of our belief, that is a works-based salvation.

Give me verses that define faith as a work. One cannot repeat a mantra without verses.
I gave you plenty in post # 57

 

[Reformed1689]

Give me verses that define faith as a work. One cannot repeat a mantra without verses.
I gave you plenty in post # 57

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, BUT believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If salvation is dependent solely upon what we do (aka believe) then that means it is a work. BUT if that faith is given to us because we were elected beforehand, it is no longer works based. I didn't say there was a verse that defines faith as a work. But your brand of salvation makes faith a work. Not to mention it isn't biblical.

 

[George Antonios]

e were chosen IN CHRIST. So there is that connection.

But you defined that yourself as simply "chosen [to be] in Christ" eventually.
Christ is still there nothing but the vehicle of salvation. He is still not the criterion for election unto salvation.

 

[George Antonios]

If salvation is dependent solely upon what we do (aka believe) then that means it is a work. BUT if that faith is given to us because we were elected beforehand, it is no longer works based. I didn't say there was a verse that defines faith as a work. But your brand of salvation makes faith a work. Not to mention it isn't biblical.

VERSES PLEASE...
I gave you verses, it's not "my brand".

I can't believe that verseless theology is "Bible" and the one with the verses is "my brand"...

 

[George Antonios]

Verses, verses, we need scriptures brother. We are Bible believers, we base all reasoning on scriptures.

 

[Reformed1689]

But you defined that yourself as simply "chosen [to be] in Christ" eventually.
Christ is still there nothing but the vehicle of salvation. He is still not the criterion for election unto salvation.

And I will ask you again, why do you think Christ should be the criterion for election to salvation? Where do you see that in Scripture? And again, I also think you are splitting hairs here to the point of absurdity.

 

[Reformed1689]

VERSES PLEASE...
I gave you verses, it's not "my brand".

I can't believe that verseless theology is "Bible" and the one with the verses is "my brand"...

Verseless? I've given plenty of verses in this exhange and expounded verses you posted as well. That is not a verseless theology.

 

[Reformed1689]

Verses, verses, we need scriptures brother. We are Bible believers, we base all reasoning on scriptures.

Who here is speaking without Scripture? It surely isn't me.

 

[George Antonios]

You're the one making an issue out of a mere chronological distinction between election and salvation, and I'm splitting hairs?

 

[George Antonios]

I mean verses that FAITH = WORKS. You know that.

 

[Reformed1689]

You're the one making an issue out of a mere chronological distinction between election and salvation, and I'm splitting hairs?

But there is a chronological distinction. That's not splitting hairs.

I mean verses that FAITH = WORKS. You know that.

Why would there be a verse that shows your logical error? That makes no sense? Is there a verse that says 2+2=4? Or that E=MC2? Again, you are in the realm of absurdity.

 

[George Antonios]

Alright. I know when I'm done. I trust all the above is an apt testimony to all.

CONCLUSION OF THIS THREAD:
1) Christ is not the criterion for election unto salvation.

2) The Bible teaches that faith cannot be counted as a work (see above verse), but we will consider it a work anyway, and without scriptural support.

God bless you brother as you serve him.

 

[Reformed1689]

Alright. I know when I'm done. I trust all the above is an apt testimony to all.

CONCLUSION OF THIS THREAD:
1) Christ is not the criterion for election unto salvation.

2) The Bible teaches that faith cannot be counted as a work, but we will consider it a work anyway, and without scriptural support.

God bless you brother as you serve him.

Of course this is a misleading representation of what I have said but I guess that is what @George Antonios wants to do. That will be on his conscience.

 

[Reformed]

Hello Reformed.
Election does not happen in eternity [Ephesians 1:4 has been dealt with in the posts, and no one has yet tackled the problem posed by being in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world if we interpret it in a Calvinistic way. See post #33].
Election happens always in time. He chooses to save those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

1Peter 1:2 Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: ...

We were sanctified of the Spirit when we believed, not before the foundation of the world.
God foreknew who would get saved and made sure to get them the gospel (according to the foreknowledge of God) but the actual election occurred at the time of believing. It's beautifully simple.

George, you are actually articulating much of the Calvinist position, although you probably will not agree with that.

First, you have repeatedly confused election and predestination with the actual call of the Spirit (the effectual call). While they are connected in the golden chain of salvation, they work differently. It helps to have a good definition of terms if there is going to be a profitable conversation. The following definitions are by Donald K. McKim's "Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms".

Election - God's choosing of a people to enjoy the benefits of salvation and to carry out God's purposes in the world (1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10). This doctrine has been of particular importance in Reformed theologians.

Predestination - God's actions in willing something to a specific result. It is also called foreordination. Some Christian theologians, particularly in the Reformed tradition, have seen it as indicating God's eternal decree by which all creatures are foreordained to eternal life or death. It may also be used synonymously with "election" and indicates God's gracious initiation of salvation for those who believe in Jesus Christ.

These definitions explain the Calvinist view of election/predestination. Calvinists believe both of these doctrines occurred in eternity past by the Father (Ephesians 1:4). Election/predestination should not be confused with the effectual call. McKim describes the effectual call this way, "God's calling to the elect with the result that they respond in faith." The framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist of Faith expand on this:

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

Let me explain it another way. God the Father elected all those who will come to faith in Christ from eternity past. Sometime during their life, the Holy Spirit actually (or effectually) calls those elect individuals to repentance and faith. It is at this moment that an elect person actually passes from death to life. It is at this moment that the former sinner, even though elected/predestined by the Father, can be called "in Him" or "in Christ".

You have repeatedly asked what the Father's criterion is for electing individuals to eternal life. When I pressed you on the matter you said that it was on the basis of faith. Your answer is the classic foreseen faith view in which God looked down the corridor of time and elected all those who chose Him by faith. There is so much wrong with that view that it deserves its own thread. That view also makes God dependent on the choice of man, which is unbiblical. In actuality, God the Father chose the full number of the Elect for His own reasons which He does not reveal to us (Ephesians 1:11). Is it not comforting to know that in eternity past the father elected you and then, at a point in time, actually called you by the Spirit to repentance and faith?

 

[George Antonios]

Well a bunch of Calvinists would disagree with your assessment of my articulation, haha, read the thread.

Now:

Every reference to predestination in the sciptures is a reference to God having predestinated for whoever would believe on his Son, to end up in certain conditions, as follows:

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [...] Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
That's predestination to have a physical body after the physical body of Christ at the resurrection - not salvation. For see:
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Again, that's the adoption of the new body at the resurrection. (Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. )

Eph_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph _1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

All Christians will end up being to the praise of his glory - not a question of salvation there. that's already settled.

 

[Benjamin]

wow wow wow. It took a while, but there it is, ladies and gentlemen. You Calvinists were not chosen [election] because of Jesus Christ. You don't why it was you, but "of course" it had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. It may be some inherent value in you aside from Christ... At least the non-Calvinist believes he was chosen [election] in connection to Christ (because of believing in him).

I've heard a lot in my life, but "gems" like this, very few...

Very troubling indeed. It appears by Determinists' thinking that even Jesus Christ Himself has been reduced to a puppet of the Father who has predetermined all things... ...so many problems here!

 

[Particular]

But why does he will to choose one man and damn another.
We get that he is "sovereign". The question is, again, based on what does it please God's will to damn one man and save another? Chance? Caprice?

God has not found it necessary to tell us. He is under no obligation to tell us. It's like a Father dealing with infants. Explanations are useless. The infant cannot understand. The infant simply must accept that her/his father knows best.
You and I must do the same. We trust that God knows best and we accept it.
What is utterly shocking is that God ever cared about redeeming any human. Why would He ever care when all humanity is like a filthy rag and in natural rebellion against him?