On the criterion of "election"

[InTheLight]

Or a #0 from ITL.
What do you actually believe, ITL?
Is faith a gift from God or not?

Faith can be a gift from God, but in Ephesians 2 8:9, as interpreted by Calvinists, the gift of God is salvation.

Jesus "found faith" in the Roman centurion in Matthew 8 and Jesus marveled at his faith. If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at something He would have gifted this man?

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[Particular]

Faith can be a gift from God, but in Ephesians 2 8:9, as interpreted by Calvinists, the gift of God is salvation.

Jesus "found faith" in the Roman centurion in Matthew 8 and Jesus marveled at his faith. If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at something He would have gifted this man?

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So, assuming I accept your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9, and salvation is the gift.
Who chooses to give the gift?
To whom is the gift given?
Is the gift given to every human? If so, and the gift is given to all, how can all people not be saved? Wouldn't the gift given mean that all to whom God gives the gift of salvation are, ipso facto, saved?

Can you identify the error in your thinking?

 

[George Antonios]

You can twist it all you want. But if our election is dependent on our faith first then it is salvation by works.

You keep saying that in the face of the word of God's repeated statements that faith is not a work.

 

[Reformed1689]

You keep saying that in the face of the word of God's repeated statements that faith is not a work.

I never said God's word says it does so I don't know why you keep trying to push that. I said what you turn faith into makes it a work. In other words you are talking about a faith not found in the Bible.

 

[George Antonios]

George, I am really not concerned whether or not other Calvinists agree with me. I have to be obedient to scripture even if that puts me at odds with those on "my side".

Respectfully, you misinterpret the passages you posted. You have bought into the foreseen faith view lock, stock, and barrel. The truth is that everyone who is predestined by the Father to eternal life will believe. The same verses you use to defend the foreseen faith view I use to defend predestination/election by the Father from eternity past. If God only elects those who believe, then God is beholding to His creation. The supposed free agency of man trumps the sovereignty of God. If you want me to be bluntly honest, you knew this before you started your last two threads. You started these threads under the guise of asking questions, but you already had an agenda.

A) I do not believe that we were elected based on foreseen faith. Where did you see that in my posts? Election is always in time, never outside of time.
B) You did not explain how you use those verses.
C) Too many people here like you presume to read a man's heart. I know well why I began those threads. And it may not be why you think. This is territory we best all eschew.

 

[George Antonios]

I never said God's word says it does so I don't know why you keep trying to push that. I said what you turn faith into makes it a work. In other words you are talking about a faith not found in the Bible.

...verses, please, please, support with verses.

 

[Reformed1689]

...verses, please, please, support with verses.

How am I supposed to support that with a verse? That's just an idiotic request.

 

[George Antonios]

How am I supposed to support that with a verse? That's just an idiotic request.

God bless you brother

 

[Reformed1689]

God bless you brother

And your agenda is clear as @Reformed said..

 

[George Antonios]

You guys say that like I did some deceitful or evil thing. Let's focus on the scriptures and not on each others' hearts, shall we?

 

[Particular]

A) I do not believe that we were elected based on foreseen faith. Where did you see that in my posts? Election is always in time, never outside of time.
B) You did not explain how you use those verses.
C) Too many people here like you presume to read a man's heart. I know well why I began those threads. And it may not be why you think. This is territory we best all eschew.

Chosen from before the foundation of the world would still be in time by your reckoning. Is that accurate to say?
So God's election would be in time, but before the foundation of the world. Correct?

 

[Particular]

You guys say that like I did some deceitful or evil thing. Let's focus on the scriptures and not on each others' hearts, shall we?

Will you accept scripture?
When God says he chooses and predestines and elects, will you accept it?

 

[George Antonios]

Chosen from before the foundation of the world would still be in time by your reckoning. Is that accurate to say?
So God's election would be in time, but before the foundation of the world. Correct?

No, I've gone through it elsewhere (there are so many posts), but the idea is that Ephesians 1:4 doesn't stand alone. There are other verses that speak of being chosen in time and my contention is that such verses (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:3 - we were sanctified in time, not before time) must illuminate our interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. That's all.

 

[Reformed1689]

Chosen from before the foundation of the world would still be in time by your reckoning. Is that accurate to say?
So God's election would be in time, but before the foundation of the world. Correct?

Even saying eternity past is a point in time.

 

[Reformed1689]

No, I've gone through it elsewhere (there are so many posts), but the idea is that Ephesians 1:4 doesn't stand alone. There are other verses that speak of being chosen in time and my contention is that such verses (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:3 - we were sanctified in time, not before time) must illuminate our interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. That's all.

Eternity past is still time.

 

[George Antonios]

Will you accept scripture?
When God says he chooses and predestines and elects, will you accept it?

Of course. And there is not a single verse about anyone being predestinated unto salvation. All of such verses relate to the fact that God had predestinated for anyone who would of his own free believe on his Son to end up in certain pre-determined conditions of blessing.
See post # 98.
Show me one verse that teaches predestination unto salvation and I will believe it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course. And there is not a single verse about anyone being predestinated unto salvation. All of such verses relate to the fact that God had predestinated for anyone who would of his own free believe on his Son to end up in certain pre-determined conditions of blessing.
See post # 98.
Show me one verse that teaches predestination unto salvation and I will believe it.

Romans 8:28-30

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 8:28-30

See post #98.

 

[Particular]

No, I've gone through it elsewhere (there are so many posts), but the idea is that Ephesians 1:4 doesn't stand alone. There are other verses that speak of being chosen in time and my contention is that such verses (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:3 - we were sanctified in time, not before time) must illuminate our interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. That's all.

We're those who are adopted chosen before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4-5 declare or is God mistaken in what He said?
The other verses still declare that God chose, God predestined and God elected. Why does it matter to you as to the date and time of that decision by the Supreme King?

 

[Reformed1689]

See post #98.

Post 98 has no bearing.

Romans 8 plainly shows we are predestined unto salvation.