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On the criterion of "election"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 3, 2019.

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  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Faith can be a gift from God, but in Ephesians 2 8:9, as interpreted by Calvinists, the gift of God is salvation.

    Jesus "found faith" in the Roman centurion in Matthew 8 and Jesus marveled at his faith. If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at something He would have gifted this man?

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    #121 InTheLight, Oct 5, 2019
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  2. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    So, assuming I accept your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9, and salvation is the gift.
    Who chooses to give the gift?
    To whom is the gift given?
    Is the gift given to every human? If so, and the gift is given to all, how can all people not be saved? Wouldn't the gift given mean that all to whom God gives the gift of salvation are, ipso facto, saved?

    Can you identify the error in your thinking?
     
    #122 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying that in the face of the word of God's repeated statements that faith is not a work.
     

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    #123 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I never said God's word says it does so I don't know why you keep trying to push that. I said what you turn faith into makes it a work. In other words you are talking about a faith not found in the Bible.
     
    #124 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
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  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    A) I do not believe that we were elected based on foreseen faith. Where did you see that in my posts? Election is always in time, never outside of time.
    B) You did not explain how you use those verses.
    C) Too many people here like you presume to read a man's heart. I know well why I began those threads. And it may not be why you think. This is territory we best all eschew.
     
    #125 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    ...verses, please, please, support with verses.
     
    #126 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How am I supposed to support that with a verse? That's just an idiotic request.
     
    #127 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    God bless you brother
     
    #128 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And your agenda is clear as @Reformed said..
     
    #129 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You guys say that like I did some deceitful or evil thing. Let's focus on the scriptures and not on each others' hearts, shall we?
     
    #130 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  11. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Chosen from before the foundation of the world would still be in time by your reckoning. Is that accurate to say?
    So God's election would be in time, but before the foundation of the world. Correct?
     
    #131 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  12. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Will you accept scripture?
    When God says he chooses and predestines and elects, will you accept it?
     
    #132 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    No, I've gone through it elsewhere (there are so many posts), but the idea is that Ephesians 1:4 doesn't stand alone. There are other verses that speak of being chosen in time and my contention is that such verses (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:3 - we were sanctified in time, not before time) must illuminate our interpretation of Ephesians 1:4. That's all.
     
    #133 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Even saying eternity past is a point in time.
     
    #134 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  15. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Eternity past is still time.
     
    #135 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Of course. And there is not a single verse about anyone being predestinated unto salvation. All of such verses relate to the fact that God had predestinated for anyone who would of his own free believe on his Son to end up in certain pre-determined conditions of blessing.
    See post # 98.
    Show me one verse that teaches predestination unto salvation and I will believe it.
     
    #136 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:28-30
     
    #137 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
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  18. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    #138 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  19. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    We're those who are adopted chosen before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4-5 declare or is God mistaken in what He said?
    The other verses still declare that God chose, God predestined and God elected. Why does it matter to you as to the date and time of that decision by the Supreme King?
     
    #139 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Post 98 has no bearing.

    Romans 8 plainly shows we are predestined unto salvation.
     
    #140 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
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