On the criterion of "election"

[Reformed1689]

@George Antonios let me break this down for you.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)

For those he foreknew he also predestined.....

Skip to verse 30:

Those whom he predestined (already happened) he called. Those he called (again already happened at this point) he justified. What do you think justification is?

This is the golden chain of salvation. It is a progression of events and it starts with predestination.

 

[Reformed1689]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where does it say that I was predestinated to be JUSTIFIED?

You are kidding right? Can you read?

Those whom he predestined (ALREADY HAPPENED) He justified. Why did he justify them? Because he predestined them. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Reformed1689]

If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

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Do you think faith is talking about the same thing all the time?

 

[Particular]

If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

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Why wouldn't he?
The gift of faith is a gift of action. That's why James says that faith without works is dead.
Faith causes action. Jesus is thrilled with the work that faith has done in the centurion.
Similarly, Jesus commends the gentile woman near Tyre who declares that even the dogs feed from the scraps off the table. Jesus was thrilled with how faith was actively working in her life.
Why wouldn't Jesus be thrilled with the work of faith. It is he who gives people faith. It thrills God to see people use the gifts He gives them.

 

[George Antonios]

You are kidding right? Can you read?

Those whom he predestined (ALREADY HAPPENED) He justified. Why did he justify them? Because he predestined them. This isn't rocket science.

David, that's because you're reading the text with Calvinistic glasses. That's what happens.
Please, please, take them off for a moment, and even if you disagree with me, try seeing what I'm seeing, then disagree with me, ok?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God predestinated that would-be believers (not predestinated to make believers of some people by an eternal random decree) would end up having a resurrection body like unto Christ's (already discussed). Predestination here becomes operational after salvation. God is predestinating those people who are getting saved to getting a new body like his Son's. Paul fleshes out that very concept next:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,

i.e. before God fixed your destination of getting a new body like Christ and going to heaven he first had to call you:

them he also called: and whom he called,

then he had to justify you

them he also justified: and whom he justified,

and had to glorify you

them he also glorified.

in order to make you worthy of such a destination as having a body like Christ's in heaven.

Nothing there said that in eternity past God predestinated some people unto justification.

 

[Reformed1689]

David, that's because you're reading the text with Calvinistic glasses. That's what happens.
Please, please, take them off for a moment, and even if you disagree with me, try seeing what I'm seeing, then disagree with me, ok?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God predestinated that would-be believers (not predestinated to make believers of some people by an eternal random decree) would end up having a resurrection body like unto Christ's (already discussed). Predestination here becomes operational after salvation. God is predestinating those people who are getting saved to getting a new body like his Son's. Paul fleshes out that very concept next:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,

i.e. before God fixed your destination of getting a new body like Christ and going to heaven he first had to call you:

them he also called: and whom he called,

then he had to justify you

them he also justified: and whom he justified,

and had to glorify you

them he also glorified.

in order to make you worthy of such a destination as having a body like Christ's in heaven.

For the record I have not always been a adherent to the doctrines of grace.

That being said, he did not predestine us because we would believe, we beleived be caused he predestined us. If we are predestined because we believe that makes salvation solely at worst, half at best, up to man. It's a works based salvation instead of a God given salvation. That's semi-pelagianism.

And predestination cannot become operational after the fact. That is the exact opposite of predestination. And no, the new body again is a product of our predestination but that still has no bearing on when the predestination happened. It happened BEFORE we were called, not after. Are you saying we get saved before we are called? Because that is definitely NOT what Scripture says.

 

[Revmitchell]

However, I will ask a question about your comment.
If faith comes from the gospel, it does not necessarily come from God. Instead it comes from the preaching of the good news or the reading of the good news.

Heresy

 

[George Antonios]

That being said, he did not predestine us because we would believe, we beleived be caused he predestined us. If we are predestined because we believe that makes salvation solely at worst, half at best, up to man. It's a works based salvation instead of a God given salvation.

I grew up as a 4-point Calvinist

I find that the constant hiccup is this, not so much scripture but this: the idea that if a man is free to believe of himself in the Lord Jesus Christ, then that's a works-based salvation. It's that notion that colours the Calvinist's view of everything he reads, even though the scriptures repeatedly defined faith as a non-work (Romans 4:5, etc in the above posts).

 

[Particular]

Heresy

How so?

 

[Reformed1689]

I grew up as a 4-point Calvinist

I find that the constant hiccup is this, not so much scripture but this: the idea that if a man is free to believe of himself in the Lord Jesus Christ, then that's a works-based salvation. It's that notion that colours the Calvinist's view of everything he reads, even though the scriptures repeatedly defined faith as a non-work (Romans 4:5, etc in the above posts).

Again, I am not, and have never said, that the faith we see in Scripture is a work. I am saying what you are turning faith into is a work. That is a big difference. In other words, I am saying what you call faith is not found in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

I grew up as a 4-point Calvinist

By the way there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist

 

[George Antonios]

And predestination cannot become operational after the fact. That is the exact opposite of predestination.

Sure it can. The suffix "pre" simply means "before". It doesn't have to be "before the foundation of the world" in every case.
Either way, I've already conceded that it can be such, but it's simply that God pre-destinated, i.e. pre-set the destination of every would be believer as obtaining a new house/body like unto Christ's in heaven.
What's wrong with that scripturally?

 

[George Antonios]

By the way there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist

Ok whatever, that's how I grew up and that's what the pastor and elders of the church were. That's a different issue now.

 

[George Antonios]

Again, I am not, and have never said, that the faith we see in Scripture is a work. I am saying what you are turning faith into is a work. That is a big difference. In other words, I am saying what you call faith is not found in Scripture.

I don't know what you mean or what I'm making.

 

[Reformed1689]

Sure it can. The suffix "pre" simply means "before". It doesn't have to be "before the foundation of the world" in every case.
Either way, I've already conceded that it can be such, but it's simply that God pre-destinated, i.e. pre-set the destination of every would be believer has obtaining a new house/body like unto Christ's in heaven.
What's wrong with that scripturally?

Because that's not what Scripture says. Scripture says that those he predestined he will call and those he will call will be justified and those who he justifies will be glorified.

It's not a would be. IT's a hey, I chose him and now I am going to go get him.

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't know what you mean or what I'm making.

I don't know how to explain it any other way. You want to deny what Scripture says, that's on you. I can't change your mind that is the Spirit's job.

 

[George Antonios]

Because that's not what Scripture says. Scripture says that those he predestined he will call and those he will call will be justified and those who he justifies will be glorified.

It's not a would be. IT's a hey, I chose him and now I am going to go get him.

You can't invent a doctrine. You need verses that say that. And there aren't any. You just interpret more-or-less 3 obscure passages that way against the overwhelming light of the rest of the easier scriptures.
That's how heresies thrive: interpret the easy in the light of the hard, rather than the other way around.

 

[George Antonios]

I don't know how to explain it any other way. You want to deny what Scripture says, that's on you. I can't change your mind that is the Spirit's job.

What did I make of faith? where? how?

 

[Reformed1689]

You can't invent a doctrine. You need verses that say that. And there aren't any. You just interpret more-or-less 3 obscure passages that way against the overwhelming light of the rest of the easier scriptures.
That's how heresies thrive: interpret the easy in the light of the hard, rather than the other way around.

I'm not inventing anything. That is EXACTLY what Romans 8 says.

 

[George Antonios]

It did not say that some people were predestinated to be justified.
It said some people were predestinated to end up having a body like Christ's.
Those some people, God predestinated to such a blessed adoption of body, because he had first called them, and justified them when they believed the gospel.
And that simply jives with tons of scriptures.
And it's what you get when you take off Calvin's glasses.