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On the criterion of "election"

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 3, 2019.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    • God chose, before time, to place in Christ any individual who would believe on his Son (Eph.1:4).
    • God chooses whatever individual in time, when he believes on his Son (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:2, Gal.3:26-28).
    • God was already aware of who would believe (1Pe.1:2).
    Voilà.
     
    #141 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    And there you have it. Salvation is half dependent upon man. Semi-Pelagianism. Works based salvation.
     
    #142 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
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  3. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Yet, non of the verses state anything about "anyone of his own free might believe."
    The Bible is replete with God choosing men (and women...thank you Mary). The Bible openly tells us that the Supreme King chooses, predestines and elects. It's not a muddy or cloudy subject. Scripture is clear.
    What is also clear is that rebellious men, led by their hearts desire to be King, create arguments where they become the cause of their salvation by their free-will. It is...a very natural... thing to do.
     
    #143 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  4. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    That is not what God says in Ephesians 1:4. That is your added words, not scripture.
    The whole passage is about what God does...with no assistance from us. If scripture is to be the final word, then let scripture be the final word. Ephesians 1:4 doesn't say what you claim.

    Ephesians 1:3-10
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
     
    #144 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  5. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Guys;

    This:
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Is defined by Paul himself as a reference back to:
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our BODY.
    Because he explained it in:
    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Every would-be believer was predestinated to have his body, not only his soul and spirit, adopted; but unlike with the soul and spirit, the adoption of the body is fulfilled at the resurrection.
     
    #145 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Waiting for the verse...
     
    #146 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How does that have ANY bearing on what we are talking about? It doesn't in any way.
     
    #147 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You have been given verses but you want to deny them because they don't fit your theology.
     
    #148 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    We can't just tell each other "No that's not what scriptures says" especially when we're showing each other scripture.
    We must address the scriptures in the argument.
    I'm getting a constant stream of: "but then man would be responsible for his salvation" (which is not true because faith is not a work according to scriptures) kind of feedback.
     
    #149 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    How is that an answer? Please show what is wrong with the presentation of the scriptures.
     
    #150 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  11. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    I already quoted Ephesians 1. I had a thread in John 6 and I have shared Romans 8. It comes to my mind that you may not want to accept the clarity of God's word.

    Romans 8:29-31
    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
     
    #151 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is not a work when it is initiated by God. But that is not the kind of faith you describe.
     
    #152 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
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  13. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

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    Scripture has been very clearly shared. I will let God's word speak to you. Your fight is not against me.
     
    #153 Particular, Oct 5, 2019
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  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Nothing, but it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. We are predestined to be justified. Those who were predestined were then called by God. After the calling we are justified because of the faith that calling produces. It is all God. Nothing that man has done. But he chose us before the foundation of the world. That is why he calls us because we are the ones chosen. He does not call everyone with an effectual drawing to Himself that John talks about.
     
    #154 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Again, neither of you shows me where the error in my presentation and interpretation of the scriptures is.
    You simply accuse me of refusing to believe the scriptures because they don't fit my theology.
    If I am mistaken, my arguments must be dissected and refuted by scriptures, if I am to be helped (from your point of view).
     
    #155 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    See my previous post.
     
    #156 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    PLEASE SHOW ME THE VERSE THAT SAYS THAT.
     
    #157 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    OH MY GOODNESS!

    Romans 8:28-30
     
    #158 Reformed1689, Oct 5, 2019
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Where does it say that I was predestinated to be JUSTIFIED?
     
    #159 George Antonios, Oct 5, 2019
  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #160 InTheLight, Oct 5, 2019
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