On the criterion of "election"

[George Antonios]

We're those who are adopted chosen before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4-5 declare or is God mistaken in what He said?
The other verses still declare that God chose, God predestined and God elected. Why does it matter to you as to the date and time of that decision by the Supreme King?

• God chose, before time, to place in Christ any individual who would believe on his Son (Eph.1:4).
• God chooses whatever individual in time, when he believes on his Son (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:2, Gal.3:26-28).
• God was already aware of who would believe (1Pe.1:2).

Voilà.

 

[Reformed1689]

• God chose, before time, to place in Christ any individual who would believe on his Son (Eph.1:4).
• God chooses whatever individual in time, when he believes on his Son (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:2, Gal.3:26-28).
• God was already aware of who would believe (1Pe.1:2).

Voilà.

And there you have it. Salvation is half dependent upon man. Semi-Pelagianism. Works based salvation.

 

[Particular]

Of course. And there is not a single verse about anyone being predestinated unto salvation. All of such verses relate to the fact that God had predestinated for anyone who would of his own free believe on his Son to end up in certain pre-determined conditions of blessing.
See post # 98.
Show me one verse that teaches predestination unto salvation and I will believe it.

Yet, non of the verses state anything about "anyone of his own free might believe."
The Bible is replete with God choosing men (and women...thank you Mary). The Bible openly tells us that the Supreme King chooses, predestines and elects. It's not a muddy or cloudy subject. Scripture is clear.
What is also clear is that rebellious men, led by their hearts desire to be King, create arguments where they become the cause of their salvation by their free-will. It is...a very natural... thing to do.

 

[Particular]

• God chose, before time, to place in Christ any individual who would believe on his Son (Eph.1:4).
• God chooses whatever individual in time, when he believes on his Son (2Th.2:13, 1Pe.1:2, Gal.3:26-28).
• God was already aware of who would believe (1Pe.1:2).

Voilà.

That is not what God says in Ephesians 1:4. That is your added words, not scripture.
The whole passage is about what God does...with no assistance from us. If scripture is to be the final word, then let scripture be the final word. Ephesians 1:4 doesn't say what you claim.

Ephesians 1:3-10
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[George Antonios]

Guys;

This:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Is defined by Paul himself as a reference back to:
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our BODY.
Because he explained it in:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Every would-be believer was predestinated to have his body, not only his soul and spirit, adopted; but unlike with the soul and spirit, the adoption of the body is fulfilled at the resurrection.

 

[George Antonios]

Yet, non of the verses state anything about "anyone of his own free might believe."
The Bible is replete with God choosing men (and women...thank you Mary). The Bible openly tells us that the Supreme King chooses, predestines and elects. It's not a muddy or cloudy subject. Scripture is clear.
What is also clear is that rebellious men, led by their hearts desire to be King, create arguments where they become the cause of their salvation by their free-will. It is...a very natural... thing to do.

Waiting for the verse...

 

[Reformed1689]

Guys;

This:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Is defined by Paul himself as a reference back to:
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our BODY.
Because he explained it in:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Every would-be believer was predestinated to have his body, not only his soul and spirit, adopted; but unlike with the soul and spirit, the adoption of the body is fulfilled at the resurrection.

How does that have ANY bearing on what we are talking about? It doesn't in any way.

 

[Reformed1689]

Waiting for the verse...

You have been given verses but you want to deny them because they don't fit your theology.

 

[George Antonios]

That is not what God says in Ephesians 1:4. That is your added words, not scripture.
The whole passage is about what God does...with no assistance from us. If scripture is to be the final word, then let scripture be the final word. Ephesians 1:4 doesn't say what you claim.

Ephesians 1:3-10
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

We can't just tell each other "No that's not what scriptures says" especially when we're showing each other scripture.
We must address the scriptures in the argument.
I'm getting a constant stream of: "but then man would be responsible for his salvation" (which is not true because faith is not a work according to scriptures) kind of feedback.

 

[George Antonios]

How does that have ANY bearing on what we are talking about? It doesn't in any way.

How is that an answer? Please show what is wrong with the presentation of the scriptures.

 

[Particular]

Waiting for the verse...

I already quoted Ephesians 1. I had a thread in John 6 and I have shared Romans 8. It comes to my mind that you may not want to accept the clarity of God's word.

Romans 8:29-31
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

 

[Reformed1689]

(which is not true because faith is not a work according to scriptures) kind of feedback.

Faith is not a work when it is initiated by God. But that is not the kind of faith you describe.

 

[Particular]

We can't just tell each other "No that's not what scriptures says" especially when we're showing each other scripture.
We must address the scriptures in the argument.
I'm getting a constant stream of: "but then man would be responsible for his salvation" (which is not true because faith is not a work according to scriptures) kind of feedback.

Scripture has been very clearly shared. I will let God's word speak to you. Your fight is not against me.

 

[Reformed1689]

How is that an answer? Please show what is wrong with the presentation of the scriptures.

Nothing, but it has nothing to do with what you are talking about. We are predestined to be justified. Those who were predestined were then called by God. After the calling we are justified because of the faith that calling produces. It is all God. Nothing that man has done. But he chose us before the foundation of the world. That is why he calls us because we are the ones chosen. He does not call everyone with an effectual drawing to Himself that John talks about.

 

[George Antonios]

Again, neither of you shows me where the error in my presentation and interpretation of the scriptures is.
You simply accuse me of refusing to believe the scriptures because they don't fit my theology.
If I am mistaken, my arguments must be dissected and refuted by scriptures, if I am to be helped (from your point of view).

 

[Reformed1689]

Again, neither of you shows me where the error in my presentation and interpretation of the scriptures is.
You simply accuse me of refusing to believe the scriptures because they don't fit my theology.
If I am mistaken, my arguments must be dissected and refuted by scriptures, if I am to be helped (from your point of view).

See my previous post.

 

[George Antonios]

We are predestined to be justified.

PLEASE SHOW ME THE VERSE THAT SAYS THAT.

 

[Reformed1689]

PLEASE SHOW ME THE VERSE THAT SAYS THAT.

OH MY GOODNESS!

Romans 8:28-30

 

[George Antonios]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Where does it say that I was predestinated to be JUSTIFIED?

 

[InTheLight]

So, assuming I accept your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9, and salvation is the gift.
Who chooses to give the gift?
To whom is the gift given?
Is the gift given to every human? If so, and the gift is given to all, how can all people not be saved? Wouldn't the gift given mean that all to whom God gives the gift of salvation are, ipso facto, saved?

Can you identify the error in your thinking?

If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at the faith he found in the centurion?

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