Particular
Well-Known Member
George, you and everyone else know that is not a true statement. It may be the crutch you have created to ignore clear scripture, but it is not a true statement.
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On the criterion of "election"
- Thread starter George Antonios
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
If you want to deny the PLAIN reading of Scripture and put this mystical spiritualization to it (that isn't there but added by you) that is on you. I choose to believe Scripture as written not as I want it to be.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
That is EXACTLY what it says.
Jesus said he found faith in the centurion. That means he didn't gift him with it. That's the topic being discussed--Is faith a gift from God?
You are presuming it IS a gift and just plowing ahead with an alternate explanation as to what that gift is doing.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Now wait a minute, that means that you assume Jesus knows everything the Father does. But yet only the Father knows the time of the Son's return. How do you reconcile that?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
So wait, it's not Jesus Christ that gives the faith, but the Father?
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Not only was the interpretation plain, it also agrees with the rest of the plain scriptures.
whosoever will
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
This is interesting now.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Whosoever will? That doesn't have any bearing on anything we are talking about. That's a whole different topic.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Sure, because there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist because they're all connected.
But fine, moving on, tell me about this faith thing now.
The faith doesn't come from Jesus Christ but from the Father?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Short answer, yes, that is what I believe. But that is actually off topic.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
But don't Calvinists generally teach (I understand you may not agree, just asking now) that the expression the faith of Jesus Christ means that it's faith given by Christ to a man?
Particular
Well-Known Member
So Jesus isn't God. God was surprised and unaware of the centurions faith?
Here is what the passage actually says:
Matthew 8:5-10
When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Note: The centurion already calls Jesus...Lord. A Roman is bending the knee to a lowly Jew. What would ever compel a person in that position to submit himself to a Jew and call him...Lord? Might it be that God had already saved the man? Might it be that the faith the centurion had came from God. Isn't it marvelous that a non-Jew had been chosen for salvation and given faith...even before Jesus atoning sacrifice had happened? Doesn't it express what Paul tells us when he declares that God chose to graft people in so they become the children of the promise?
Sir, the passage you point at presents to you the Supremacy of God and faith, given by God. How I wish you could see this glorious truth.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
OOORRR, you can give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume or ask if he wasn't simply talking about the human aspect of Christ's nature (as David evidently also did), before you try painting him as a potential denier of Christ's deity and smacking down your "glorious truth" and "sir"s; no?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
As I understand Calvinists, this expression would mean that Jesus Christ gives people saving faith; no?
Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
As I understand Calvinists, this expression would mean that Jesus Christ gives people saving faith; no?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
My translation says in Jesus Christ not of Jesus Christ.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Read my full response and the passage I posted. My point is that the text clearly presents Jesus authority. Jesus is not taken by surprise at all.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
That's a tad more than "My point is that the text clearly presents Jesus authority. Jesus is not taken by surprise at all."
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Really? Because in my experience, the of is bedrock for them (although it simply means "in relation to").
So what do you use then?
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? ?
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