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Could some of your children be not elect of God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Oct 9, 2019.

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  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    My God has graciously given me two lovely daughters, for whom I thank him.
    The question is to my Calvinist brethren. Given your interpretation of Romans 9, where God elected/loved Jacob but rejected/hated Esau, do you countenance the very real possibility that some of your children may be predestinated to be rejected/hated of God and on their way to an eternal fire because of God's purpose of will to show off his wrath in them - and that there's nothing you can do about it? Or is it only other people's children that are damned?
    I'm not talking about the possibility that some our children may not get saved because of their own freewill rejection - the way a non-Calvinist sees the matter.
    I'm talking about the Calvinist idea that some of them may already be damned with no hope of salvation because of some eternal mysterious decree.
     
    #1 George Antonios, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Correct. There may be some/all who are not

    I teach them the Gospel. The rest is up to God
     
    #2 Marooncat79, Oct 9, 2019
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  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I preach to them the gospel also and trust God for the rest also. That's not really what the question was about.
     
    #3 George Antonios, Oct 9, 2019
  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Yes it was


    What else is there to do?
     
    #4 Marooncat79, Oct 9, 2019
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    It is possible that children of Christian parents (including Calvinist parents) may not be elect.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
    #5 Reformed, Oct 9, 2019
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  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Pray for them
    MB
     
    #6 MB, Oct 9, 2019
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Prove it with scripture.
    MB
     
    #7 MB, Oct 9, 2019
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The first recorded birth was a child of the devil.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Oct 9, 2019
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  9. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    We pray for all men MB

    Of course we pray. Yes, I am very concerned about mt children and others as well
     
    #9 Marooncat79, Oct 9, 2019
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I confidently told my children that Jesus loves them when I put them to bed. But, I have often asked a Calvinist do you lie to your children when you put them to bed at night and tell them that Jesus loves them or did you tell them your “bible truth” that you hope they are one of the lucky pre-selected few?
     
    #10 Benjamin, Oct 9, 2019
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  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    If I had children, I would tell them that they are sinners, and that only through Christ's sacrifice are any of us saved...I would preach Christ crucified with the very words of God, and let Him do the work, instead of trying to "get them to make a decision" through some sort of "plan of salvation".

    I would never tell them "how to be saved", like so many teach today.

    I would also never tell them that God loves them, because I clearly see that Paul, for example, never mentioned the love of God anywhere in his preaching to the unconverted masses, and instead reserved that information for those that showed evidence that they believed the Gospel.
    For example, the epistles are written to believers, not unbelievers.

    There is not one recorded instance in Scripture where a servant of God tells someone that is not saved, that God loves them...
    Outside of the nation of Israel, which was under a covenant that He made with them, and that they agreed to keep.

    I have often asked people who think that their belief is what saved them, how they could tell their children that God loves them in the light of Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, and Romans 9:13, among others...
    They end up, most of the time, disagreeing with the words on the page.
    To them, "love" means "love", but "hate" does not mean "hate".

    I figure they'll see the words on the page or hear it in the preaching and either believe them because they have "ears to hear" and "eyes to see", or they will not.

    Nevertheless, I would do as the Lord commands, and love them whether or not they are saved ( Ephesians 6:4, Proverbs 22:6, Psalms 127:3-5, Titus 2:4, Colossians 3:21 ).

    Election is God's prerogative.
     
    #11 Dave G, Oct 9, 2019
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  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Yes. But then I don't hold to the concept of "covenant children."
     
    #12 Squire Robertsson, Oct 9, 2019
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  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Neither do I.
     
    #13 Dave G, Oct 9, 2019
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I may be "Reformed" in many areas of my theology but I believe children need to come to faith in Christ as any other child. I do believe God works in families, although not in the way our Presbyterian brethren do. I believe this is also part of God's gracious work of election. Children raised in Christian homes are most-likely raised in light of the gospel. While not members of the New Covenant community until conversion, they nevertheless enjoy the benefits of being among those who are under the New Covenant. I believe this is part of God's design.
     
    #14 Reformed, Oct 9, 2019
  15. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    I knew a man once who, in announcing the birth of his son, said, "Praise God - we have one more of the elect."

    I asked, "What makes him, as a newborn, a member of the elect." He said, "I am, his father, part of the elect."

    I didn't know what to say.

    I've always thought that if I were a Calvinist that I could never bear children. What if God, while knitting my child in my womb, hated him and condemned him to hell in my womb? What if while forming his little body inside me, God planned only for him to burn in hell and no matter what I did to raise him up in the Lord, it would of no value or use? I couldn't do that.

    I don't want to start a debate over this, I just had to contribute my thoughts here.
     
    #15 Scarlett O., Oct 9, 2019
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  16. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Of course one of my children may not be elect. But I rather trust God with their salvation than trust them with it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
    #16 McCree79, Oct 9, 2019
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  17. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    What practical difference is their between that scenario, and a free will scenario where a child consistently rejects the gospel?

    Parents will convey the gospel and pray that God will save them.
     
    #17 Rob_BW, Oct 9, 2019
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  18. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    You are talking about apples and oranges.

    I'm not talking about trusting a human being with saving himself. That's impossible.

    And I am talking about trusting God with children's salvation. But for those whom you believe God be created as hated creatures with no opportunity for God TO save them as he hates them and desires from their conception for them to burn in hell forever JUST for being born hated....

    …..you CAN'T trust God for their salvation.....he isn't going to save them. It isn't his plan TO save them - so say the reformed. They aren't and never will be part of the elect.

    So what's there to trust God about in that scenario?

    For God to save someone, he has to initiate it. God draws. God saves. But mustn't mankind have SOME responsibility - not a work - but a reaction TO God's calling? A surrendering to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

    Mustn't a person say yes in obedience to God TO be saved?

    You say one of your children may not be loved by God. Then you can't trust God for that child's salvation. He never will be saved in the eyes of the reformed.

    That's my point of what would I could not bear if I were reformed. Knowing that - speaking in terms of mathematical odds - my children, any or all of them, would stand a greater chance of hell that heaven no matter how I raised them to fear God or love/believe the scriptures.

    And if God created my child in wrath and hatred, why would he expect to me love the child?
     
    #18 Scarlett O., Oct 9, 2019
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...looks to me like you’re debating Scarlett. :)
     
    #19 kyredneck, Oct 9, 2019
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  20. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Nope. I am talking about salvation and salvation

    I didn't say you were



    Sure I can. I don't know if they are elect. You don't know if it is his plan or not

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord -Isa. 55:8

    Nope...so no man shall boast

    Bible says saved by grace. It isnt grace if you have to do something to get it. Your response is part of that Grace. Eph 2:8

    Sure I can. Three young men once trust Gid as they were cast fiery furnace, not know if He would say them or not, but they trusted God to glorify Himself and accepted His will. Again, I do not know who the elect are. Not sure how you are equating "may not be elect" with "He will never be saved".

    You have put the weight of their souls on your shoulders. If you fail, they will spend eternity in Hell. You are trusting in your parenting skills over God's perfect will. Not sure how that is comforting.

    Please tell us how you know who the elect are. This will streamline evangelism.



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    #20 McCree79, Oct 9, 2019
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