Could some of your children be not elect of God?

[McCree79]

...looks to me like you’re debating Scarlett.

I noticed that....hahaha

I don't even know what her first post was.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[Scarlett O.]

...looks to me like you’re debating Scarlett.

point taken and you are right....

 

[utilyan]

I got no problem spotting if you are child of God or not.

1 John 3

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


John 13

34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


1 John 4

20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.


We know what is good and evil. If you don't know who God loves I got some bad news and good news for you.

 

[1689Dave]

I think one of the most severe tests a Christian parent can have is a son or daughter headed to hell. While at the same time knowing God controls all destinies. Do we love him in view of this? Do we agree with him that sinners deserve his wrath when it is our family? I think love for God sorts it out and provides the proper attitude in this manner.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My God has graciously given me two lovely daughters, for whom I thank him.
The question is to my Calvinist brethren. Given your interpretation of Romans 9, where God elected/loved Jacob but rejected/hated Esau, do you countenance the very real possibility that some of your children may be predestinated to be rejected/hated of God and on their way to an eternal fire because of God's purpose of will to show off his wrath in them - and that there's nothing you can do about it? Or is it only other people's children that are damned?
I'm not talking about the possibility that some our children may not get saved because of their own freewill rejection - the way a non-Calvinist sees the matter.
I'm talking about the Calvinist idea that some of them may already be damned with no hope of salvation because of some eternal mysterious decree.

Hello George! A belated warm welcome to the B.B.
May I ask you if you would advocate prayer for a Christian's unsaved children? It seems to me that such a prayer would be both useless and hypocritical. If I'm reading you right, God seems to have resigned responsibility for anyone's salvation, it's all down to their own free will.
So anyone with unsaved children must do the best he can to convince them of their need of Christ, and if that doesn't work he must look on in helpless sorrow as they wend their way to eternity. His only consolation being that God looks on equally helplessly since He has abdicated all responsibility for salvation as 3 Corinthians makes so clear

Unless he has been up to heaven, had a look at the Book of life and found his child's name missing there, for the believer in Sovereign Grace, it is the sovereignty of God that gives him hope. When all his best arguments and pleading have fallen on stony ground, he does not despair. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next year, God will move in his loved one's heart and bring him to Christ. In the meantime, he besieges heaven with his prayers, knowing that 'The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man [i.e. someone whom God has justified] avails much' (James 5:16).

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16), some labourers were hired at the start of the day, some at the ninth hour and some at the eleventh. But each one received the same reward. Note also that the labourers could do nothing to hire themselves; they could only wait for the landowner. So it is that some children of believers may resist the Holy Spirit for year after year, but like the Mounties, He always gets His man.

 

[Particular]

I knew a man once who, in announcing the birth of his son, said, "Praise God - we have one more of the elect."

I asked, "What makes him, as a newborn, a member of the elect." He said, "I am, his father, part of the elect."

I didn't know what to say.

I've always thought that if I were a Calvinist that I could never bear children. What if God, while knitting my child in my womb, hated him and condemned him to hell in my womb? What if while forming his little body inside me, God planned only for him to burn in hell and no matter what I did to raise him up in the Lord, it would of no value or use? I couldn't do that.

I don't want to start a debate over this, I just had to contribute my thoughts here.

Do you imagine that you determine the conception of a child? We see God closing wombs and opening wombs throughout the Bible. We see God hardening hearts and softening hearts throughout the Bible.
Like any Supreme ruler, God may hear the plea of a citizen, but the decision is solely up to the ruler. The centurion understood this when displaying faith in Jesus healing from a distance. Just ask and trust the one who has the power to heal. The one with power is not obligated to act. God is not a genie. The one with power makes the decision and lives with it, regardless of the reaction of the recipients of the decision.
I have children. When they were born and throughout their growing, I have entrusted their spirit to God. I try to be faithful and ask God that He might make my children alive with Christ, but I submit to His Sovereign decision. It is good to know God is in control, not my children. They, like me, are fickle people. Their emotions run the spectrum. They would usurp God's authority if they could. But, God is Supreme. He has heard my prayers. He will decide according to His perfect will. I am content.

 

[InTheLight]

I would also never tell them that God loves them, because I clearly see that Paul, for example, never mentioned the love of God anywhere in his preaching to the unconverted masses, and instead reserved that information for those that showed evidence that they believed the Gospel.
For example, the epistles are written to believers, not unbelievers.

There is not one recorded instance in Scripture where a servant of God tells someone that is not saved, that God loves them...

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:4-5‭



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Particular]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:4-5‭



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Who is the "us" Paul is writing to? Is it not "us who have been made alive with Christ?" (Ephesians 2:4-6) Is it not the elect who were chosen from before the foundation of the world? Is it not the children of the promise (Jacob I loved), not the children of rebellion (Esau I hated)?

 

[Reformed1689]

The question is to my Calvinist brethren. Given your interpretation of Romans 9, where God elected/loved Jacob but rejected/hated Esau, do you countenance the very real possibility that some of your children may be predestinated to be rejected/hated of God and on their way to an eternal fire because of God's purpose of will to show off his wrath in them - and that there's nothing you can do about it? Or is it only other people's children that are damned?

Of course. This seems like a question to try and catch us in some emotional trap. But it's true. There are loved ones that may not be elect.

 

[Reformed1689]

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:4-5‭



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Wrong. This was not written to the unsaved. Original audience matters. The Bible may have been written for us, but it was not written TO us.

 

[utilyan]

I think one of the most severe tests a Christian parent can have is a son or daughter headed to hell. While at the same time knowing God controls all destinies. Do we love him in view of this? Do we agree with him that sinners deserve his wrath when it is our family? I think love for God sorts it out and provides the proper attitude in this manner.

When you ignore your conscience and caring of your child, Satan CHEERS. Satan hated that child unconditionally from the beginning and wants you and god to kiss his feet and join him in hating that child.

There is not one recorded instance in Scripture where a servant of God tells someone that is not saved, that God loves them...
Outside of the nation of Israel, which was under a covenant that He made with them, and that they agreed to keep.

Roman 9

1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

If I ever heard a CALVINIST sound like Paul here....... I WOULD EAT MY OWN SHOE!

Paul is ready to take their spot

If they have been damned from beyond eternity past, having God HATE them from the beginning, But your OWN good conscience IN THE HOLY SPIRIT wants them saved.


This contradiction is what we call --> If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebul.

When your own sense of mercy shows up for someone God-hated, That mercy from you is not the Devil, the Devil hates everyone. Where does this mercy and love come from?

In truth the situation is that someone is SATAN-hated not having a problem calling himself God. And the mercy come from God.

The Devil has a gun to your head, calls himself God, Say I hated your worthless child since beyond eternity past, Hate him with me, Don't let your weak sense of mercy , compassion, love get in the way of GROVELING at my feet and serving my unconditional hatred of your brothers and sisters.

 

[InTheLight]

Who is the "us" Paul is writing to? Is it not "us who have been made alive with Christ?" (Ephesians 2:4-6) Is it not the elect who were chosen from before the foundation of the world? Is it not the children of the promise (Jacob I loved), not the children of rebellion (Esau I hated)?

That's a #3.

Sure, Paul is talking to the Ephesian who are (now) Christians. But he clearly says God had great love for us even while we were dead in trespasses and sins.

Plain as day, and undeniable.

 

[InTheLight]

Wrong. This was not written to the unsaved. Original audience matters. The Bible may have been written for us, but it was not written TO us.

#3.

Verse clearly says God loved us when we were walking corpses.

 

[Reformed1689]

If I ever heard a CALVINIST sound like Paul here....... I WOULD EAT MY OWN SHOE!

Do you have Paul's heart? Would YOU take their place? Do YOU have that passion for the lost?

If they have been damned from beyond eternity past, having God HATE them from the beginning, But your OWN good conscience IN THE HOLY SPIRIT wants them saved.

Who says Calvinists do not want to see the lost saved? What Calvinist has EVER said otherwise?

 

[Reformed1689]

#3.

Clearly says God loved us when we were walking corpses.

Not so fast. It is still the elect. Difference scenario. There is also general grace, don't forget that.

 

[InTheLight]

Not so fast. It is still the elect. Difference scenario. There is also general grace, don't forget that.

It's plain as day. God loved us even when we were dead in trespasses and sins.

The lengths that Calvinists need to go to get scripture to fit into their theology is astonishing.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's plain as day. God loved us even when we were dead in trespasses and sins.

The lengths that Calvinists need to go to get scripture to fit into their theology is astonishing.

Not really. We don't have to stretch anything. It is there, as you say, plain as day.

 

[InTheLight]

Not really. We don't have to stretch anything. It is there, as you say, plain as day.

Calvinists like to use Eph 2:1-3 you show that when unsaved we were walking corpses, dead to God, worldly, ruled by lusts of the flesh, etc.

Paul says that when we were like that God still loved us.

 

[Christopher m]

How do you know if you are of the elect?

 

[1689Dave]

When you ignore your conscience and caring of your child, Satan CHEERS. Satan hated that child unconditionally from the beginning and wants you and god to kiss his feet and join him in hating that child.






Roman 9

1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

If I ever heard a CALVINIST sound like Paul here....... I WOULD EAT MY OWN SHOE!

Paul is ready to take their spot

If they have been damned from beyond eternity past, having God HATE them from the beginning, But your OWN good conscience IN THE HOLY SPIRIT wants them saved.


This contradiction is what we call --> If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebul.

When your own sense of mercy shows up for someone God-hated, That mercy from you is not the Devil, the Devil hates everyone. Where does this mercy and love come from?

In truth the situation is that someone is SATAN-hated not having a problem calling himself God. And the mercy come from God.

The Devil has a gun to your head, calls himself God, Say I hated your worthless child since beyond eternity past, Hate him with me, Don't let your weak sense of mercy , compassion, love get in the way of GROVELING at my feet and serving my unconditional hatred of your brothers and sisters.

It comes down loving God more than family in some extreme cases.